Is Yard Mtn a 4000 footer?

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Dave

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I cant figure out if this mountain is 4009 feet or 3990 feet. Which is the most recent measure? At 4009' the prominence from Big Slide works out to at least 203 feet.
I know it's not on any traditional "list" but I would like to know its status anyway.
Thanks.
 
prominence in daks is 300 ft

My understanding is that prominence in the daks has to be at least 300 feet. I was also led to be believe that it is above 4000, but doesnt meet the prominence requirements. Its an easy side hike from big slide though.
 
It's a 4000 footer, but due to the lack of prominence, isn't considered a "true" mountain by the 46ers but rather just a ridge that sticks out of Big Slide, so no, it doesnt count towards the 46. Like Blacklab said though, it's worth a trip; it's not some decent views although not nearly as spectacular as Big Slide. Not too many people take the time to hike out to it. Also, if you climb Yard and Big Slide from JBL via the Klondike Notch trail, you'll probably have the trail and the summit of Yard all to yourself as the crowds usually ascend and descend via the trail along Slide Mountain Brook and the trail over the Brothers.
 
I cant figure out if this mountain is 4009 feet or 3990 feet. Which is the most recent measure? At 4009' the prominence from Big Slide works out to at least 203 feet.
I know it's not on any traditional "list" but I would like to know its status anyway.
Thanks.

Hi Dave,

Yard is benchmarked in my version of Topo! (1958 survey I think) at 1222 metres , which converts to 4009 feet. By those figures then, Yard is most definitely a 4000 footer.

But, is it a 46er-worthy peak? Ie. is its prominence sufficient for it to be included in a list that uses a 300 foot col rule? Doesn't look like it, even if you use the inclusive technique of adding one full (imaginary) contour interval from the last one shown on the map to the col's low point.

Therefore, to hell with it.

But, If your using a 200 fot col rule then it is "on a list". :D
 
Good information posted already.

A very useful list which shows the prominence of many Adirondack peaks is this Peakbagger.com list of 3700' Adirondack peaks . The numbered peaks have 160' clean prominence. This is their standard criteria for northeastern US peaks. The difference between clean prominence and the standard col rise definitions is one contour interval. So combined with the 40' contour intervals of some White Mountain USGS maps; 160' of clean prominence is the equivalent of the standard 200' rise criteria used by the AMC and many other northeast list makers. Similarly it also covers one 10 meter (32.8') contour interval on the current metric Adirondack maps. This list also includes an isolation / distance from the parent mountain (nearest higher neighbor mountain from the perspective of prominence). On this list the 4009' Yard has a 0.9 mile distance/isolation from Big Slide and with a 203' clean prominence (based on the current metric maps).

Some historical information on why Yard is not a 46er peak. The original criteria that the Marshall brothers and Herbert Clark used to create their list of Adirondack 4000' mountains involved both elevation rise and distance: "300' rise on all sides (prominence) or 0.75 mile distance to the nearest higher peak." Only 30 of the 46er peaks have a 300' rise/prominence on the current and also the 1895-1904 era maps used by the Marshalls and Clark. 6-8 of the 46er peaks do not even have a 200' rise/prominence (depending on which set of maps are used). Iroquois, Gray, Armstrong, Donaldson, and Emmons do not have a 200' rise on current maps nor on the USGS maps used by the Marshall brothers and Clark. Nye also does not have a 200' rise, and it is not a 4000' peak on current maps. Carson (South Dix) and Dial - had a 200' rise on the 1950 era maps, but are below 200' rise on the newer metric maps. The Marshall's distance clause is the sole reason these mountains appear on the 46er list.

So I would not discount Yard Mountain merely because of its current 203' prominence from Big Slide. It is in the same company with 6-8 of the 46er peaks. As Tom noted it is on the Northeast 3000' list of 770+ mountains.

To understand why the Marshall brothers and Herbert Clark overlooked Yard, one needs to look at their maps. You can view and/or download these maps at the University of New Hampshire's repository of Historic USGS Maps of New England & NY. Go into the Quad Index for New York and look for the 1895 Mount Marcy, 1898 Lake Placid, 1901 Elizabethtown, 1904 Santanoni USGS quads.

On the 1895 Mount Marcy Quad, the 4038' Yard was unnamed. It only had a 118' rise/prominence from Big Slide. I had originally thought that it had less than 0.75 mile from Big Slide on this map, and thus it failed both criteria and was rightfully excluded from the Marshall/Clark list of 4000' peaks. However, on closer examination it is clear that Yard was more than 0.9 mile from Big Slide on the 1895 map. So it appears that the Marshall brothers probably overlooked Yard because it was unnamed. Yard did indeed qualify for their 4000' list on the 1895 map using the Marshall brother's criteria. On the 1953 Mount Marcy Quad the 4018' Yard fared much better with a 238' rise/prominence and about the same 0.9 mile distance from Big Slide. This was not the only oversight that the Marshall's made. They also overlooked Little Marcy and another northwest peak of Marcy which were also unnamed on the 1895 map, but both qualified under the distance clause. There were probably other overlooked, qualifying (distance clause) peaks on the 1895-1904 maps.

If the Marshall brothers and Herbert Clark had had access to the 1950 era or the current maps, they would have included Yard (> 0.75 mile) and the 4308' middle/east peak of Table Top (> 300' rise) on their list. They might have also included the 4744' Little Marcy and the 4406' northwest peak of Marcy which are both more than 0.75 mile from their respective next higher peaks (Marcy and Little Marcy), and both have more prominence than Gray and Armstrong, although neither has a 200' rise/prominence. They might have also stuck to their original assertion that Gray Peak should not be on the list as it failed (and continues to fail) both of their criteria on their and all subsequent USGS maps. The only reason that they reluctantly included Gray Peak of their final list of 46 was that Russell Carson politicked them into including Gray because it was named in honor of the Asa Gray, a native of New York and a prominent Harvard University botanist. But I would like to believe that if the Marshalls had the option to reformulate their list based on current knowledge; they might have avoided the distance clause altogether. Distance clauses are not used much in the formulation of current peak lists as they are rarely well defined and they lead to too many disputes and/or oversights on which "ridge bumps" to include on the peak list.
 
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Yard

I believe that Yard Mtn in the Adirondacks is too close to Big Slide- has to be at least a mile away and a certain amount (250 or 300 feet) of height difference from the col to qualify as a separate peak.
 
It all depends on the rules you use.
Agreed, the question is a matter of criteria. It is also a purely academic and moot question in terms of the 46er list; because the 46er Club has chosen to maintain a static list of 46 peaks. It means that all 46ers will climb the same 46 peaks. And there is something to be said for that. In essence this is one more clause in the club's criteria.

I have my own list, which has NY's 37 peaks over 5,000 feet. Most of them are unnamed. My rules are a 17 foot rise and a distance of 50 feet.

Anyone want to join the Adirondack 37ers?
That might be fun. However, I believe the summit stewards and a legendary crazy guy with an axe will yell at us for trampling the alpine flora (and rightly so). But perhaps if you brought your axe then we might be able to keep the stewards and that other crazy axe guy at bay.
 
I believe that Yard Mtn in the Adirondacks is too close to Big Slide- has to be at least a mile away and a certain amount (250 or 300 feet) of height difference from the col to qualify as a separate peak.
The Marshalls' 4000 foot peak criteria per the "Story of the Adirondack Forty-Sixers" written Grace Hudowalski and Orville Gowie for the 1970 edition of the 46er book, page 3:
The mountains must be over 4000 feet in elevation. In a range of mountains, there must be at least a 300 foot drop between peaks; or a peak must be at least three-quarters of a mile away in distance from others to be considered a separate mountain.
There were 42 peaks on their original list. Russell Carson later convinced them to include Gray peak (for the reasons I stated earlier) and the 3 peaks that were exactly 4000' on the 1895-1904 USGS maps. That brought the Marshalls' list to 46.

The same basic criteria has been restated in the ADK Club's High Peak Region Trail Guidebook. In appendix iii of the 13th edition, page 268:
The criteria for these peaks (the 46er peaks) were that each peak must be at least 0.75 mile from the nearest higher summit, or that it rise at least 300 feet on all sides.

As I mentioned before; on the 1895 USGS map, Yard is above 4000' and is more than 0.9 mile from Big Slide. Under the Marshalls' criteria a 4000' mountain only needed to qualify by either rise or distance. So Yard did qualify based on distance even though the rise from Big Slide was less than 300'. I suspect the Marshalls most likely overlooked Yard along with Little Marcy, NW Marcy, and numerous other qualifying ridge bumps because they were not named on their USGS maps.

No doubt the Marshalls did not intend to include ridge bumps with trivially small rises. They probably had some unstated threshold. That is just part of why I stated that distance clauses are not well defined. Gray, which they reluctantly included, only had a 60' rise on the 1895 Mount Marcy quad. Yard had a larger rise at 118' on the same map, and so it arguably should have made the list. Too bad it wasn't named for someone as important as Asa Gray.
 
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Tabletop, NE peak, is also a legimate ADK 4000 footer by these standards.
Unless I'm mistaken Tabletop, NE ( I've always called it Tabletop East) has 300 feet of prominence if you use the inclusive method. But it fails to make the distance grade. (I refer to the inclusive method as the imaginary contour interval method but I believe that some lists use 50% of an interval as opposed to 100%)

On the list compiled by Barry and Boomer (Hundred highest ADK peaks, 300 foot col, no distance rule) TTop East is right up there at position 22. The views across to Gothics and the Range make it a worthy objective. The easiest way to get there is from Phelps, right Cory?
 
Getting back to the original question …

My view on questions like this is not to be enslaved by the various peakbagging list rules, but to follow your own instincts and heart, take the initiative to find reliable information (maps, etc.), and use your own head to noodle it out. In other words, you certainly are free to set and apply your own criteria.

My own “feeling” is that Yard probably is a 4,000 ft peak well enough separated from Big Slide to stand on its own. But I've never spent a lot of time fretting over the question. I’ve greatly enjoyed the hike to Big Slide from the Klondike Notch trail, which includes a traverse of Yard, and that’s pretty much good enough for me.

As I’ve said before, the “lists” inform, but they do not rule my hiking.

G.
 
Btw...

You should just climb Yard, for crying out loud :p

It's RIGHT next to Big Slide, and will add...what...an hour to your entire trip time? :eek: It's a mountain, a beautiful, wild, unique Adirondack mountain. Why wouldn't you climb it? If it's not part of a list, then just get out of peak bagging mode and take it for what it is. "Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves." - John Muir

Thanks for all the interesting discussion about this topic, however, I've found it informative. :)
 
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Yard ....

I did that many years ago. Go for it .. as I remember it had a nice ledge with very good views. It made a nice loop as I remember it. As long as you're out hiking .. its worth the effort.

ADK 46er 3396 ..

:D
 
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