Jay Peak anomaly

[guildhall]

Hi, quick question:
I've noticed from various snowdepth and snowfall reports that jay peak boasts more than 50% higher amounts than other areas. For example the ski area claims 350 inches annually, nearly 100 higher than mansfield or washington. Likewise in '01 they claimed a record of 571 inches, nearly 300 more than mansfield or washington. For some reason I don't believe these amounts, as I've driven past the mountain in late spring and seen little snow.
for example right now at the base of the mountain (1800 ft) 52 inches!
at first I thought this was for the ski area, but its actually coop stations
http://www.nohrsc.noaa.gov/nsa/repo...wdepth&dy=2005&dm=12&dd=23&units=e&sort=value

anyone have info on jay peak and whether or not it inflates its snow?

 

[grouseking]

Hi, quick question:
I've noticed from various snowdepth and snowfall reports that jay peak boasts more than 50% higher amounts than other areas. For example the ski area claims 350 inches annually, nearly 100 higher than mansfield or washington. Likewise in '01 they claimed a record of 571 inches, nearly 300 more than mansfield or washington. For some reason I don't believe these amounts, as I've driven past the mountain in late spring and seen little snow.
for example right now at the base of the mountain (1800 ft) 52 inches!
at first I thought this was for the ski area, but its actually coop stations
http://www.nohrsc.noaa.gov/nsa/repo...wdepth&dy=2005&dm=12&dd=23&units=e&sort=value

anyone have info on jay peak and whether or not it inflates its snow?

Jay Peak has a special location that gets enhanced uplift

BUT

Their amounts do seem highly exaggerated from other areas nearby. You wonder if they fabricate amounts to get people to go there and ski. I may be a little cynical there, but it is kind of strange to see them with those high amounts. I might believe 52 inches if you combine it with man-made snow....on the summit, but I don't see how 1800 ft can support 52 inches at this time of year...despite our cold outbreak the last few weeks. Also, 70 inches at Mt Mansfield at 2200 ft? I'm not sure where that amount comes from either, especially since at 3900 feet there was 40 inches, which also sounds like a questionable measurement to me. But what do I know.

grouseking

 

[David Metsky]

The Jay Cloud does exist. They clearly get significantly more snow than other ski areas in VT, I've skied in it. Do they exagerate on top of that? Probably, but no more than other ski areas so it all balances out. But Jay can often get an extra foot out of a snow storm compared to places just 50 miles away.

There were several 1 foot + snowstorms earlier in the year that have already melted, so the 52" count isn't unusual. It's quite windy at Jay, a lot of that snow ends up in the trees and glades that you can't always see from the road. But trust me, it's there.

The only ski area I've been to that absolutely doesn't exagerate in their snow reports is MRG.

-dave-

 

[weatherman]

what we found

Dave's right about Jay Peak, though 52 inches might mean at some sort of a snow stake in a sheltered, drifted place, total snowfall for the year (which obviously gets melted/compacted), or snowmaking + natural. Also, it's so cold up there that a day like Wednesday with snow showers could easily yield 6 inches of 3-4% water content snow despite only 0.25" or less of water equivalent. So, 6 inches that is almost totally air.
On the west side of Mansfield (not ski area) Wednesday, there clearly were places with 40-50 inches (I got stuck in one), but only in drifts and cornices. Generally it seemed there was about 18-20 inches on the ground from 2500 ft on up. Plenty to have fun. More snow next week, though probably some rain/sleet on Christmas.
Weatherman

 

[grouseking]

Dave's right about Jay Peak, though 52 inches might mean at some sort of a snow stake in a sheltered, drifted place, total snowfall for the year (which obviously gets melted/compacted), or snowmaking + natural. Also, it's so cold up there that a day like Wednesday with snow showers could easily yield 6 inches of 3-4% water content snow despite only 0.25" or less of water equivalent. So, 6 inches that is almost totally air.
Weatherman

According to Jay, they have 162 inches of snow for the year, which beats most ski areas by over 80-100 inches I think. Cannon Mtn says 40 for the year, but I don't know if they counted the October snowstorm. I really don't understand the 52 inch stake, especially since on their website it says that the base is between 12-48 inches. Its just lots of different numbers that don't add up.

I also wonder if places like the Twinway between Garfield and Guyot get more snow than Jay because I hear of very heavy snow amounts along that ridge through at least June. Also, I wonder about the upper elevations of the Presidentials, especially Washington. Even though Jay records more than Washington, lots of snow doesn't accumulate at the summit because of the fierce winds. Crazy mountain weather!

grouseking

 

[guildhall]

If this helps at all I found some snowfall climatological records we can compare:
vt snowfall http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/vt/vt.sno.html
vt precip. http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/vt/vt.ppt.html
vt temp: http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/vt/vt.avg.html

nh snowfall http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/nh/nh.sno.html
nh precip. http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/nh/nh.ppt.html
nh temp: http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/nh/nh.avg.html

Looking that over it appears washington gets similar snowfall to mansfield, yet has more winter precipitation and colder temps, maybe washingtons winds affect the snowfall as you say making it the oddball in accum.

The 52" at 1800 feet still seems a bit too high, for coop stations can they measure in drifts?
heres a cam from 2200 ft in the northeast kingdom: http://www.robertlyonsphotography.com/webcam/wx.htm
heres 1st conn lake: http://www.pittsburgridgerunners.org/Trails.html

 

[mudhook51]

I worked at several ski areas in the catskills in the past, each has its own ruler, one starting at 8",others at varying heights. I'm sure they all do the same everywhere. One mountain even grew over 250' higher, to over 3500' in the past couple of years, with corresponding vertical heights. I've been meaning to bring this up to the 3500 club so they can add it to their list. Kind of like poetic liscence. Merry Chirstmas.

 

[guildhall]

ha ha, i'm not surprised
i find it interesting to compare these northeast snowfall amounts to the cascades: http://www.nohrsc.noaa.gov/nsa/repo...wdepth&dy=2005&dm=12&dd=23&units=e&sort=value

apparently jay peak has as much as paradise on rainier.....actually since that amounts at the base of jay does that mean jay could have considerably more?
who knows maybe 12 inches is as good as 15 to a ski area

merry Christmas all

 

[dms]

Baker Mountain

Impressive snowfall at Jay, but it's got a ways to go to beat out Mt. Baker in the Cascades. In 1999, the Mt. Baker ski area set the world's record for snowfall in a single season, 1,140 inches!!!

 

[AntlerPeak]

We saw some of that Mt Baker snow in July of 91'. There is a road that exits the Mt Baker highway to provide access to various trail heads. Table Mt for one, this is on the north side of the mountain. In late July the road was still blocked by deep snow at about 2500 feet several miles before the trail head. Instead we had to opt out for Yellow Aster Butte which was 6100' mountain north of Mt Baker. There the road was free of snow up to the trailhead. We did not encounter snow on the south facing ridge until about 5500 feet. Looking at the North facing ridges south of us including Baker all you could see was snow. This was on July 23rd. Three days later on another 6000 footer, Park Butte south of Baker lots of snow starting at about 3500 feet. I have a pick somewhere of a plastic trail marker about forty feet up a Dug Fir. I trust they put those up in the winter

 

[Mattl]

Alright, I cant keep quiet anymore. Jay peak is incredible in terms of uplift, but having said that because of their reputation for the most snow in the east, they have to keep up with it. I think jay embelishes quite a few of their snow reports just to come up with that. I have heard time and time again of places getting jay in trouble for snow amounts in the past, and having to be more realistic. People I know have also gone there and said there was no way. I think some people at Jay go around in drifted areas and all over the mountain getting totals. Anwsering what Dave said, I have very rarely seen NH mountains fabricate totals. It seems vermont is more common of that. Cannon didnt record during October..stupid. but they didnt. Dave himself knows they got 2 feet +, because he skied it and I was on Franconia Ridge area. But still theres something interesting about jay, and no one wants to spend the time getting into investigation. For now, they make all their money on their snow. I think places like the Twinway get as much snow as Jay does, like Grouse said. I have heard reports into early summer of feet of snow still there because of how shady and high it is. Perfect uplift too. -Matt

 

[Mike P.]

I've never been to Jay but do here about their totals. Increased uplift could be cause by the fact they are north of the ADK High peaks so they block less of the Lake Effects & terrain to the west is flatter.

Twinway is not getting more snow, it gets as much snow as any other 4,400 foot area (remember, Guyot is not a 4k because the ridge between hit & S. Twin does not drop below 4380, perhaps the highest wooded ridge as Franconia drops below 4259 or Liberty would not count) but the trees keep the snow there so no snow is blown off. some drifting possible from S. Twin & the trees also allow less sunlight in the spring & therefore slower melting.

 

[skiguy]

Definition of an ANOMALY...Devaition or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule.

Is Jay Peak...of course it is.Bottom line they get more than everyone else. Ski it and you will believe it.

 

[Snowflea]

Hah! I was about to post the same link, Skiguy! This link will get you to the same color chart:

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/nerfc/graphics/snowmaps/html/snow_depth.html

I do, indeed, see lots of "pink" in the Jay Peak area.

Useless bit of trivia: My hubby grew up skiing Jay Peak in the 60s & 70s. His dad ran the rental & repair shop, and he remembers what the summit looked like before they dynamited half of it away to accommodate the summit building. Imagine trying to get away with that today!

 

[Rugger]

Just wondering, how many places down the NE 100 highest did Jay drop, if any, when they blew the top off? I wonder the same thing about Pico as the top has been extensively worked over by the ski area.

 

[Tim Horn]

The way I see it Jay Peak's reports are overblown. So everyone should stay away and leave those woods to me. Seriously, overblown or not IME Jay does get more snow than resorts around it. Including Sutton and the Canadian resorts. I have noticed that I will drive through moderate weather almost to the base of the mountain and then the weather will really sock in and storm. The upside is that it tends to be really windy and cold and the snow tends to get swept into the trees making the best turns available to those who like gladed tree's, blowing snow and sub-zero temps. The down side is that what was such a great secret 20 years ago, is now so well known you have to go a little further in to find the goods and be willing to walk more highway on the way back up. Really though I would be very happy if ya'll skied over on Mansfield and Smugglers where they don't exagerate their snow and leave me and the imaginary blizzards of Jay in peace. Happiest New Year Ever!!

 

[vegematic]

I can only speak knowledgeably of Sunday River, but they definitely have issues with reality when it comes to reporting snowfall amounts. Whatever SR reports, I figure they actually got half to two thirds of that amount. I just assumed all other ski areas played the same games with their snowfall amounts too.
-veg

 

[trailbiscuit]

All ski areas exaggerate. Period.
Jay Peak gets more snow. Period.

It's getting better industry wide, and this could lead us into a completely different thread that probably isn't fit for public consumption.

But, keep in mind, it's snowfall. Fall, being the key word. Ask any smart ski area marketing type and they describe this process for measuring snowfall: Find a sheltered, flat spot. Measure the snow 1 hour after it starts snowing. Wipe the area clean and repeat every hour. This gives you accurate snowfall. (I know this schpeel as I used to be one of those...well, except for the smart part.)

Anyone who knows anything about snow, knows that it compacts and changes. So, snow on the ground can look very different from actual snowfall.

 

[David Metsky]

All ski areas exaggerate. Period.

Except for MRG. When the skiing sucks, they admit it. Today they called all non-groomed terrain "dust on crust" which was accurate. If they do exaggerate, I haven't caught them at it.

Jay Peak gets more snow. Period.

This is also true. But stop telling folks about it.

-dave-

 

[trailbiscuit]

My most sincere apologies to the folks at MRG. Dave, you're 100% right. In my mind, I don't lump them in with other ski area marketing types...like apples and elephants. Interestingly, I know a couple nordic areas that I believe "under-report" their conditions...but, there are plenty of elephants, too.