Leather Boots in Winter

[giggy]

I was in this exact situation a few years ago. Now I have plastics and I love them, but really only use them on overnights - my others are montrail moraines. That being said - this is your first winter and I am going to guess that your not going to be doing "extreme" stuff like 3 or 4 days out and pushing it to the max in a storm above treeline - at least I hope your not. I would wait on the plastics. Wait and make sure you like the winter stuff enough. You can get away with decent leathers with liner socks, wool, etc.. - for days hikes, you probably won't have problems. I hiked for 2 seasons with merrel grand traverse - really a light 3 season boot and did stuff like adams, lafettete, eisenhower, etc.. Never had a problem. But it has to be fair, I was picky about the weather back then -pretty much all minus 10 and above. Never -20, etc... No major storms, etc... If it got hairy I turned around.

Like mentioned - just make sure they take a crampon - that you need.
Are plastics better for winter, yep, - but leathers works - hell I think they climbed everest in leathers in the 1950's, etc..!!!

 

[MissionsMan]

Boots, overboots and socks!

Lotsa great advice here!

IMHO, use your leathers on a few short day-trips to see if they may work for longer outings. BUT, use VBL's! You can do a lot with simple, leather boots - if they are suitable for your crampons, but you must keep them dry and have plenty of room to wear warm socks.

I am a proponent of VBL use - particularly with leather boots. Keeping boots dry (inside and out) was/is the #1 reason i picked up plastics myself (especially for climbing). After i had shamelessly borrowed them for many seasons, i ponied up and bought my own. I "cut my teeth" in leather boots and suffered for many years - wet and cold feet can negatively affect the joy of an otherwise excellent climb or outing. Never again. Ever.

Warmth is also a primary benefit with plastic's. They are incredibly warm, though if other factors related to overall body warmth (hydration, adequate sleep, food, etc) aren't attended to, it won't matter what you have on your feet - you're still gonna have cold toes. I used Sorrel type pac boots for my earliest winters as they are good for snowshoeing, though they are very warm, they are pretty bulky. VBL's help there also.

Overboots such as Outdoor Rearch's Brooks Range model is an excellent supplement - though pricey. I use them in combination with Nepal Extremes and can do over-night winter trips with them. Very nice. I also prefer the overboots to super-gaitors because they have a barrier between the boot sole and your crampons (crampons obviously conduct a lot of cold to the bottom of your feet). And you don't have to worry about the gaitor coming up off of the boot.

I am considering looking at some of the more climbing "worthy" technical "cold" boots like the Nuptse or maybe even the Olympus Mons by LaSport, but until then, my Inverno's will do the trick.

By the way, used boots have pathetic re-sale value.

Have fun and be careful,

Mm

 

[Bob]

plastics, plastics, plastics.

I believe the people that hate plastics did not get a pair that fit them properly. I'd wear mine all summer if they weren't too hot, they are the most comfortable boot I own. Get them on sale, or buy rentals if $$ is an issue, a winter leather mountaineering boot will be pretty expensive also. And they'll be almost as heavy. Or rent them for now and see if you like them...
ps- I agree with SK and TA

 

[afka_bob]

Actually, my plastics were a great fit and I enjoyed them immensely. Dr Wu was simply asking if he should invest in expensive plastics right now or could he get away with leather boots. Having done both, I'd say don't worry about getting plastics right now (if at all).

A couple of other considerations:

Step-in or Strap-on crampons -- Step-ins are convenient. Strap-ons are more secure. A modified Scottish strap system hardly takes more time than a step-in and is as secure as a traditional strap system.

Plastic boot failure -- Having experienced "failure" of both leather and plastic boots, leather boots might get a tear, loose some stiches, even loose a heel but still get you down the mountain. My plastic boots (old but in seemingly good shape) suffered catastrophic failure and would have left me barefoot had I not had light approach boots (which were necessary -- or, at least -- desirable for a long flat walk in). My leather boots are stiff enough for crampons, but flex enough to let me walk the flats (with or without snow) in relative comfort.

I'm not saying that I will never have another pair of plastic boots, but having done this sort of thing for over twenty years, I don't see a burning need for another pair of plastics anytime soon.

Will just any pair of leather boots do? No, but many will. Done right, leather or plastic boots perform very well, so do what you want.

I have two friends (no, really! I do have friends) who hike all winter long in blue jeans and wool union suits. And they are both way better hikers/climbers/campers than I'll ever hope to be. I find that technique trumps equipment nearly every time -- up to a point -- a point that is seldom crossed over by most people in the WMNF. I've never been to the Adirondaks, so it might be different there.

 

[Oldsmores]

...Are plastics better for winter, yep, - but leathers works - hell I think they climbed everest in leathers in the 1950's, etc..!!!

Excellent point! Some of the equipment people consider indispensable today didn't exist even 25 years ago and people did some amazing climbs without them. Am I suggesting going back to hemp ropes, wool knickers and hob-nail boots? Not on your life. I would not suggest climbing an 8000 meter peak in leather boots today, but Dr. Wu's original inquiry was about day-hiking in the Northeast and did he NEED to add to an already hefty investment and buy leather boots. I'll stand by my original reply - nope.

 

[Rick]

I would not suggest climbing an 8000 meter peak in leather boots today,

IIRC, Didn't Anatoli Boukreev (RIP) have a habit of climbing to Camp Four in track spikes

 

[Tramper Al]

I survived, therefore it be

I'm not sure I am following some of this causal logic. Everest has been climbed in leather boots - yes. People have died of hypothermia on Washington in expedition plastic mountaineer boots - yes. Me, I once ran across a highway and I did not die, so therefore . . .

Perhaps in a first big year trying out new equipment and getting into winter hiking, it might be reasonable to rent a pair of plastic boots for one or more of these trips to the mountains, in between outings with leather/wool/VBL/supergaitor etc. If you find a size/model of boot that is comfortable for you (some don't), you might find they are to your liking. Then if you find a pair of same on sale at some point at end of season or in the basement at IME or online, you'll have learned enough to make your decision. Meanwhile, keep those toes warm and dry, wherever you may roam. Get your feet wet, but ideally not literally. Is that fair advice?

 

[Oldsmores]

I'm not sure I am following some of this causal logic. Everest has been climbed in leather boots - yes. People have died of hypothermia on Washington in expedition plastic mountaineer boots - yes. Me, I once ran across a highway and I did not die, so therefore . . .

...Is that fair advice?

Sorry Al, I wasn't making a causal argument. Winter mountaineering is an inherently hazardous endeavour and, as you point out, your choice of footwear will not guarantee safety. I'm just saying that IMHO the use of leather boots in the context that Dr. W proposed is well within the acceptable risk area.
As for your second paragraph, it's eminently reasonable advice!

 

[Warren]

I agree with Trampers sentiment, it's likely to be safer and more idiot proof to use plastics but at the same time it's not required and I would think that frost bite/nip would be more likely due to a too tight fitting boot of any type rather than use of a heavy duty leather boot.

It's wise to be prepared for harsh conditions especially if you are new to the season or activity and the comparison to Everest is true, but very misleading: those who did so with such gear were (very often) the foremost mountaineers of thier time. And often they still got frostbite/nip.

I started winter in the adks and catskills using my 3 season leathers, an over gaiter, vbls and a pair of socks for each day. It worked. It may not for you. If you start off gradually, no major multi day presidential traverses you may very well be fine, but i found that I spent a lot of time thinking about about my boots. Often the advantage of modern gear is just that: you don't have to worry as much.

Your skill level, sense of your bodies thermostat, environmental conditions will all affect this. Ultimately when I knew I wanted to camp, especially solo in the winter I opted for doubles, even then I went for a pair with a decent rocker for walking and a low profile even though they were intended as ice climbing boots and not as warm as traditional doubles.

Much of the conversation here is a matter of style. You may want to make do until you find your own unless a trip plan demands something else and your hand is forced in which case the current conservative opinion is likely the best way to go.

 

[sierra]

leather boots?

I thought Id chime in with a suggestion. I poster before me said he loved his plastics, he very well may but I beleive that is the exception to the rule. They are great for cold weather no doubt but rarely to people tout the comfort, after yrs wearing plastics I never loved them but my feet where warm and I could hike in them and ice climb as well.
If you like leathers, times have changed, there is a new generation of leather boots on the market, that make old leathers look like crap. I recently purchased a pair of lasprotiva Lhotse's. They are stiff, gore-tex lined and use thinsulate as a liner for warmth. They are comfortable right out of the box if fiitted properly. I bought mine and the next day did 16 miles no problem they are ready to go, no sore feet, no blisters. Now I will caution you, these boots are not cheap, 325 bucks but they are made in Italy and are finly crafted for sure. How cold they will go, Im not sure yet, I wear a liner sock and the expedition weight smartwool. Granted I live in Colorado and it doesnt get as cold as New England, but you said you have warm feet. They have another model up from the Lhotse's, I beleive its the K2 and those are warmer.
Anywho, its an option, I think Ive bought my last pair of plastics.

 

[dr_wu002]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I think I mistakenly gave the impression that I'm a newbie (perhaps because I'm a VFTT "Junior Member") but I'm not. I've been hiking for a while now and I feel like I know quite a bit about gear, clothing, boots etc. That includes crampons and snowshoes (both of which I've used and feel quite comfortable with). Winter boots are just something that I have to profess total ignorance to. Even though winter is my favorite season (the colder and nastier the better) and I love the outdoors and I love hiking, this the first time I'm going to make it a point to hike out this winter. I have a pair of lightly insulated Merrells that work well with both my snowshoes and crampons and will also keep me warm with a liner, vbl and thick mountaineering sock. Considering I've never had a problem spending long periods of time in -20, -30F weather with just a thin, cotton sock and sneakers I should be ok with my Merrells.

That said though, I'm starting easy with winter hikes -- like Mt. Crawford, Starr King, Tremont etc. I have a good awareness of my "skills" and I know when to turn back. I also understand that while I'm warm while moving and even while taking a break for lunch (my feet usually still stay warm) I might not be ok if I get injured -- and I've had a couple of very near misses recently (I have a few gashes and bruises on my legs that are taking quite a long time to heal). I don't want my feet to freeze off and die. I don't think my leather boots would provide adequate protection from frostbite if I had to spend an "unplanned" night out in the wilderness. I bring an emergency bivy sack with me at all times but still. Also, remember I said that I'm only putting off investing in a set of winter boots for a month, maybe 2 or 3 months but I fully expect to get them sometime this winter. Money isn't really an issue even -- I just don't feel like buying them right now. I just wanted to hear if anyone had any really strong objections or had any suggestions that I'm really making a mistake hiking in all leather.

Anyway, maybe I should move on and ask some more specific questions about the boots. What are the big differences and benefits/non-benefits of plastic boots by Koflach vs. non-plastic boots by La Sportiva or Vasque? Ultimately, I have to just go and try them on (and believe me, I will) but I have to say, flexibility or, Lack of, will probably be an issue for me. But most of these boots (the non-plastic ones) have a full length steel shank, right?

Thanks for the suggestions though. I'm comfortable for the time being with my leather boots (I could be wearing sneakers or sandals or cowboy boots or even duck flippers) and will, yes, avoid multiday presidential traverses, extremely bad/cold weather, and even overnighters until the boot situation improves. I was just hoping that perhaps someone could point to some issue that I was missing, sort of like, "Frank, your fly is open..." type thing. Thanks!

 

[BrentD22]

Wow

Has anyone ever worn plastic boots? I have no idea of how anyone could ever wear those things. I rented some last winter. I started out up Lowe's Path and just before the brown wooden sign when the trail steps off of the dirt road to the right I turned around and went back to the jeep to take off the plastic boots and put back on my leather boots.

My leather boots do freeze hard over night, but I've found a way to make this not so bad. At night I always fill all my water containers with boiling water. I fill (leaving 3 inches at top empty) 2 nalgene bottles and put them with boiling hot water in them into my boots. Then I take clothing and give my boots a blanket. The next morning I use that water to drink and for breakfast. Some times the water does freeze, but not usually all the way. If this happens I boil water and pour boiling water in the bottles over the ice and it thaws out fast. After breakfast I then boil some more water and place my nalgenes in my boots again. Then I clean up breakfast, look over maps, and other camp stuff. While all that went on the boots are normally warm or at least not cold. This has worked great for me. It takes some work, but most of the work I do is good to do anyway.

Another option is putting chemical heat packs in my sock over my toes and then putting my boots on. This doesn't really help the boots thaw out quickly, but it helps my toes feel better.

 

[Turnbill]

Doctor - heal thyself

Well, I know I'm a voice in the wilderness here, but I think we all need to buy LESS stuff!

Yes, there are all kinds of hypothetical scenarios where a pair of plastic boots might save your life (or at least your toes) and a good outer shell is important (especially if its the latest model from TNF with reinforced grommets on the cuffs!) and don't forget wick-dry wind-blocker titanium underware, etc., etc., etc.,

Pretty soon the purpose of hiking is to "check out your gear".

So I ask you Doc, you've hiked in your Merrills for years, you haven't found them wanting, why the itch to buy plastic???

You seem like you know what your doing. You probably won't die. Save your money (or donate it to the Brain Tumor Society), go for a hike, look at the woods and the lichens and the mountains and forget about gear!

 

[Jaytrek57]

Turnbill--

Us North Shore boys from Winthrop are pretty thrifty anyways.

Not only buy less stuff, but care for and repair the stuff we have. I am sure there are others, but I really enjoy that aspect of my outdoor pursuits.

A dayhike in winter I might where leathers if I am pretty sure about conditions, weather etc. If doing an overnight or multiday...it is no question I go with the plastics.

HYOH.

Peace.

 

[SherpaKroto]

I'll echo Bob's thoughts: I absolutely love hiking in my Koflach Degre's. It took a bit of tweaking to get the exact fit I wanted, but they are hands down the most comfortable boot I wear.

Dr Wu: If you live near an REI, EMS, or another store that rents Koflach's, convince the salesperson to let you take out a rental pair for a local walk. I took a pair out, found that the shell I thought would right was a bit too snug, took out the next sized shell, found it too big, brought it to their ski shop, added a full boot shim beneath the liner, took it out again and nearly perfect! I bought a new pair, and it took 2 trips for the liner to pack out a bit, but after over 40 winter 4Ks, they feel like old friends. I've used my Molitors once in winter since getting these.

You'll know when you absolutely, positively, need to get them. And then you will. Until then, hike your own hike, anytime, any season. Are you crazy? Are you high, or just an ordinary guy? Have you done all you can do? ...Are you with me Doctor?

 

[MissionsMan]

Quantum leap...

Hey wu002,

The discussion arising out of preferences between traditional plastics and newcomers like Vasque (presumably the Ice 9000) and LaSportiva offerings is often lengthy. By the way, LaSportiva is rumored to have made some significant changes to it's winter line-up for 2005 - so your decision to wait a bit is well conceived.

I am also considering stepping up (no pun!) from traditional plastics. I have Scarpa Inverno's which excellent traditional plastics, but still limited to an extent in terms of climbing "clunk-iness". I am considering both the LaSport Nuptse's and the Vasque Ice9000, though i favor the Nuptse. I will attempt links here;

http://www.lasportiva.com/Inglese/Catalogo/Nuptse.htm

http://www.vasque.com/products/m-ice9000.cfm

The Nuptse is very well received by climbers of most levels of verticality - in terms of underfoot performance such as overall comfort, warmth, water-"proofness", etc. Make sure your foot fits the Nuptse's last - else you're guaranteed an uncomfortable ride. The Ice9000 (fit is described by most as having a wide heel cup with a medium mid-foot and toebox) is also well-received and reputed to climb very well and is well-known for warmth, though detractors claim it too heavy and/or stiff. I've not worn one so i cannot support/detract any of these claims - YMMV.

Offerings from Asolo, Scarpa, and Koflach, i believe, are limited to either the more traditional plastic boots. However, standard leather offerings by Asolo are available and modern leather/synthetic blends offered by Scarpa. Scarpa also has a "Everst/Denali" level boot called the Phantom ______ that has not met good reviews. YMMV.

Enjoy the hills!

Mm

 

[Mike P.]

I don't know if anyone said, save you rlife, save some toes, more likely.

Weight Difference & flexibility difference betwen my Koflachs & the old EMS Traverses I had, not much, I wore the Traverses more & my feet developed callouses to fit the heel of those boots better. My plastics never did that.

Newer double leather or insulated Leathers like the Sportivas would be similar, similar price, similar feel = not to be confused with trail runners, similar stiffness for crampons.

Can't be 100% sure the Merrells you describe are stiff enough for a lot of cramon use for several seasons. Should be fine for the hikes you are planning to cut your winter teeth on. I've not been on C-Dome but understand the top can be very icy, If you've been great. Since I haven't I'd probably consider Martha or even Pierce over C-Dome but that is because I know those hills.

 

[dolladoj]

Had to weigh in on this.

I use my EMS Traverse (aka Alico Guide click for a good review), for all my hiking trips. It's a 4-season boot. I purchased them at an EMS closeout sale in July of '98. And after a handful of hikes in the ADKs, a couple in Maine, a couple in VT, and about 20 peaks in NH (some multiple times) they are still in top shape with no resoling appointments on the horizon.

I am pretty sure that EMS doesn't carry it any more. But the Alico model can be found all over the web. It's a little heavy, but for those with bad ankles, these tanks will give you the support and confidence for most terrain.

It works great with snowshoes and my Grivel G10's.

On winter overnights, i just put them in a trash bag and bring them in my sleeping bag with me to keep them from freezing stiff. I want to try wearing VPL's next time because I think most of the moisture that gets into the leather is from my feet (sick) and i think that this solution will make them even better!

 

[MountainManKurt]

Leather Snow Boots

I have a pair of Columbia Titannium's that I have done alot of hike in. They are have Sno-Seal waterproofing on the outside that I put on. I have been through some pretty tough place with these on. For me they have worked very well. I like them alot. but when I go camping I bring my boots in the tent and put some of those heat packs in them, just as long they are on to wet. I have only had them freeze once but thats because I didn't have the water proofing on them yet.
Kurt

 

[MissionsMan]

Thanks for the reminder

Hey Turnbill,

Thanks for the reminder... I've been a gearhead for so long that what you mention has more than a hint of truth. While the "lustre" of snowy forests and trails may look the same after many years, the shiny glitz of new gear always and temporarily satisfy's. The goal of marketing has been achieved. For too long my trips have often had a gear-evaluation aspect to them.

I really appreciate the pics from your 1974 Chocorua trip. It brings back memories of my own (not Chocorua - never been there). The days of bread bag (same function as fancy silnylon "VBL" nowadays) sock liners, hand-knit hats, wool mittens and my first nylon tent.

May the good memories of trips years ago re-shape the experiences of today to capture anew the simple joy of snow camping. Thanks for the re-memories.

Mm