Losing Weight and Getting into Shape

[David Metsky]

Ok, enough theory.

How are we doing?

Down 21 lbs since New Years. Running, portion control, sensible snacking.

 

[J.Dub]

Ok, enough theory.

How are we doing?

Since 12/1/9, I've lost 12 pounds.

In short, fewer calories consumed, (including less beer!), and more exercise.

Down 8 since Thanksgiving; another 4 to go. I've limited my alcohol to weekends-only, am snacking on healthier things and working out almost every day (alternate days of running and circuit training).

Kautz Glacier...I'm comin' for ya, baby!!

 

[DougPaul]

Nope. Not true. J.Dub is correct. It is possible to cheat a little on these machines...you can place your foot up on the next step and kinda just let the rotation of the machine bring your foot back under you. It's a subtle difference, and you can only do it if the machine is rotating relatively slowly, but you can make it a bit easier than real stairs if you want.

Try again. You can't cheat the physics. What you may be able to do is use your body differently and alter your efficiency, in which case, it is no longer the same exercise. Also, I'll bet you can do the same thing if you climb real stairs at the same slow speed. (You need to keep the speeds the same if you are going to compare the exercises--the moving stairs dictate the speed to you, you have to match that speed on the real stairs for a valid comparison.)

The active part of the moving stairs also has to be moving in a straight line (no curving parts of the path can be used). This creates an inertial frame of reference and all inertial frames of reference are equivalent (to the internal observer). For instance, you are moving faster (relative to the sun) at midnight than you are at noon, but we can't tell the difference because both are (almost*) inertial frames of reference.

The percept may also be different because you can see the world external to the stepper/stairs even if the underlying motion is the same.

* The earth's rotation makes the path of a non-polar point on the surface move in a non-straight path. However, the effect of this is too small for a human to perceive so humans perceive all points on the earth as being inertial frames of reference. Weather systems, however, are large enough to be affected.

Doug

 

[Chip]

Down 8 since Thanksgiving; another 4 to go. I've limited my alcohol to weekends-only, am snacking on healthier things and working out almost every day (alternate days of running and circuit training).

Kautz Glacier...I'm comin' for ya, baby!!

Paul's gonna be pissed if you get better lookin than him. Congrats on the weight loss and exercise.

Doug Paul; I'm not going to pretend I can argue pyhsics with you. Here's my last 2 pesos on the subject; I don't think an inclined treadmill is the same "work" as walking uphill or that a Stairmaster is the same as walking up stairs. On the machine you're supporting your weight on one foot as the tread or steps move down to meet your raised foot and that motion does not require 100% of my weight. When walking or going upstairs, I'm actually lifting and propelling forward my entire mass.

Again, regardless; You're not getting the necessary downhill exercise on a machine. Any exercise is good, hiking up and down hills repeatedly with weight is better.

Have fun out there !

 

[Billy]

Try again. You can't cheat the physics. What you may be able to do is use your body differently and alter your efficiency, in which case, it is no longer the same exercise. Also, I'll bet you can do the same thing if you climb real stairs at the same slow speed. (You need to keep the speeds the same if you are going to compare the exercises--the moving stairs dictate the speed to you, you have to match that speed on the real stairs for a valid comparison.)

The active part of the moving stairs also has to be moving in a straight line (no curving parts of the path can be used). This creates an inertial frame of reference and all inertial frames of reference are equivalent (to the internal observer). For instance, you are moving faster (relative to the sun) at midnight than you are at noon, but we can't tell the difference because both are (almost*) inertial frames of reference.

The percept may also be different because you can see the world external to the stepper/stairs even if the underlying motion is the same.

* The earth's rotation makes the path of a non-polar point on the surface move in a non-straight path. However, the effect of this is too small for a human to perceive so humans perceive all points on the earth as being inertial frames of reference. Weather systems, however, are large enough to be affected.

Doug

Man, you're funny. You obviously dig your reputation as the smartest guy in the room, but in this case you're just plain wrong. You can cite physics and engineering equations from now until the 12th of never, but you've never been on one of these machines. Until you have been on one, you simply don't know the subtle distinctions that I'm talking about. Everybody is wrong sometimes...today it's your turn. Deal with it.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Until you have been on one, you simply don't know the subtle distinctions that I'm talking about.

I have to agree with Billy on this one Doug. I have used these machines. You can actually work these machines so that effectively you are doing virtually no climbing at all. It is cheating, but you really can make it so that you are effectively not climbing at all especially since the step is falling away from you. You can effectively use both steps so that the upper foot doesn't actually get any weight until it follows the step down to the height of the lower foot. It isn't 100% cheating but it isn't doing anywhere near the climbing listed by the machine by a long shot. Physics is safe. The machine assumes that you are using it in a correct manner but if you cheat your workout is roughly equivalent to walking in baby shortened steps on a nearly flat surface.

At least that is my experience with that type of machine.

I wish I didn't know that, but I do.

Keith

 

[J.Dub]

Now, now...you kids play nice. Don't make me come over there...!

I *think* I may have figgered it out. See if this makes sense to all y'all:

The key to doing work is moving your center of gravity (or centre du gravitee for Neil and Yvon ). Climbing real stairs, you're obviously moving your CoG continuously upwards, along with the rest of your "entire mass," as Chip so eloquently puts it.

On a stairmill, however, two things could happen. You could move your CoG up one step and then the machine lowers it down as the steps rotate. The next step moves the CoG up one step again, etc., etc. So it's possible that all these repeated steps could add up to real vertical gain for your CoG.

But, it's also possible that, if your timing is right, you can step exactly in pace with the steps dropping, thereby keeping your CoG relatively still and just moving your legs a lot. Since your CoG isn't actually gaining any "height" with each step, you're therefore doing very little work.

Sound right...?

 

[jniehof]

But, it's also possible that, if your timing is right, you can step exactly in pace with the steps dropping, thereby keeping your CoG relatively still and just moving your legs a lot. Since your CoG isn't actually gaining any "height" with each step, you're therefore doing very little work.

Sound right...?

You're neglecting any work that goes into heating the machine (and your muscles, for that matter)--which is ultimately where it all goes. Doug's point is that if you're exerting a force on the steps, and they're moving in the same direction you're exerting that force, some work is getting done. By pure CoG measure a treadmill, or running a flat marathon, is zero work--you start and end at rest, at the same level.

Whether it's the same amount of work as actually climbing stairs, or works the same systems of the body, is another matter on which I don't pretend to have an informed hypothesis.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

But, it's also possible that, if your timing is right, you can step exactly in pace with the steps dropping, thereby keeping your CoG relatively still and just moving your legs a lot. Since your CoG isn't actually gaining any "height" with each step, you're therefore doing very little work.

That is exactly what I was saying. Correct. You are doing some leg movement but you are not actually raising your body.

Keith

 

[JohnL]

I have a college calculus book that had one of my favorite quotes in it. The author was going through a complex problem solving exercise when in the middle of it he said, “The rest is intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer.” Are ya kiddin’ me? It took another page of iterations and equations. Anyway, I’ve always liked to use that quote in a context like this.

It’s intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer that neither a motor operated treadmill nor a motor operated rotating stair master provides 100% of the workout that running (or walking) on a fixed surface (sidewalk, road, lawn) or climbing a fixed surface (hillside, stairway, ladder) will. A treadmill does a significant amount of the work to “propel you forward”, (move your foot from in front of you to in back of you) that your hamstrings and gleuts do on a fixed surface. In an analogous manner, a revolving stairmaster does the same to “propel you upward” (move your foot from a high point to a low point relative to your CoG). In the treadmill/stairmaster scenarios, the motor and your legs are sharing the work that only your legs are doing on the fixed surfaces. The motors provide no assistance in moving your foot from back to front on the treadmill nor from a low point to a high point on the stairmaster. In that part of the exercise, it’s all you.

JohnL

 

[Chip]

okay, 2 more pesos from me; here's a brief article that discusses it.

There are important differences between a treadmill workout and a track or road workout. As Owen Anderson explains on the Peak Performance website, when running on a normal running surface, the leg muscles provide constant forward propulsion for the upper body. When running on a treadmill, your leg muscles are not used to propel your body forward. They are used to stabilize your upper body in a balanced position. The treadmill takes some of the workload off your legs...

(AND, you still need to exercise downhill...)

 

[dr_wu002]

It’s intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer that neither a motor operated treadmill nor a motor operated rotating stair master provides 100% of the workout that running (or walking) on a fixed surface (sidewalk, road, lawn) or climbing a fixed surface (hillside, stairway, ladder) will. A treadmill does a significant amount of the work to “propel you forward”, (move your foot from in front of you to in back of you) that your hamstrings and gleuts do on a fixed surface. In an analogous manner, a revolving stairmaster does the same to “propel you upward” (move your foot from a high point to a low point relative to your CoG). In the treadmill/stairmaster scenarios, the motor and your legs are sharing the work that only your legs are doing on the fixed surfaces. The motors provide no assistance in moving your foot from back to front on the treadmill nor from a low point to a high point on the stairmaster. In that part of the exercise, it’s all you.

JohnL

You can also just increase the incline. I don't see why people are arguing about this -- just get out and exercise. If your goal is to be a professional athlete you'll probably have to work out harder. Otherwise, common sense is probably >50% of what you need to get into good shape.

FWIW, Roger Bannister trained extensively on a treadmill while a Med Student at Oxford before he broke the 4 minute mile so you know what, if you want to train on a treadmill, and if you're serious about it, you'll probably do ok. Why is this so hard to understand?

-Dr. Wu

 

[DougPaul]

I have to agree with Billy on this one Doug. I have used these machines. You can actually work these machines so that effectively you are doing virtually no climbing at all. It is cheating, but you really can make it so that you are effectively not climbing at all especially since the step is falling away from you. You can effectively use both steps so that the upper foot doesn't actually get any weight until it follows the step down to the height of the lower foot. It isn't 100% cheating but it isn't doing anywhere near the climbing listed by the machine by a long shot. Physics is safe. The machine assumes that you are using it in a correct manner but if you cheat your workout is roughly equivalent to walking in baby shortened steps on a nearly flat surface.

At least that is my experience with that type of machine.

As I understand it, the key issue here is whether the stairs move or not, all else being equivalent. (At least that is what I am talking about.) In the above, you talk about a cheating movement which breaks the "all else being equivalent" condition.

Consider the case of an escalator--you walk up 10 steps (without touching the hand rails or being near the ends. You expend the same amount of energy whether the escalator is moving or not. (The escalator must be in uniform motion--no speeding up or slowing down.)

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Since your CoG isn't actually gaining any "height" with each step, you're therefore doing very little work.

Sound right...?

No. The fact that your CoG stays at the same height means that the overall system (you plus the stair climber motor) isn't doing any work. (Assuming everything is 100% efficient, ie no friction.) In contrast, for you to do no work, you would have to stand on one step without moving while the stair climber lowers you (the motor would be absorbing the energy produced by the descent of your CoG).

On the idealized stair stepper, you are doing positive work (producing energy) and the motor is doing negative work (absorbing energy) for a system total of zero. Since the goal of an exercise machine is to make you work, the goal is achieved.

Doug

 

[donna]

Hey DougPaul, can you take my math test for me? It's on March 6th. All you have to do is pretend you're me and use my finger print. It's a 4 hour test but you'll be finished within 1/2 hour and I'll get all the right answers.

 

[coldfeet]

gained weight

just got back from the adk gathering...i gained a few pounds...I figured I added muscle which ways more...but I didn't want to see that number on the scale...hopefully I'll drop a few this week.....I'm pretty sure the 5 bagels, 2 peanut butter sandwiches , 2 salami sandwiches, a couple of beers, lots of deserts or the shot of scotch I had on colden had anything to do with it but boy did i sweat on the hike...need to get back on the program starting tonight....

 

[Rik]

just got back from the adk gathering...i gained a few pounds...I figured I added muscle which ways more...but I didn't want to see that number on the scale...hopefully I'll drop a few this week.....I'm pretty sure the 5 bagels, 2 peanut butter sandwiches , 2 salami sandwiches, a couple of beers, lots of deserts or the shot of scotch I had on colden had anything to do with it but boy did i sweat on the hike...need to get back on the program starting tonight....

I thought you looked beautiful.

 

[Paradox]

I thought you looked beautiful.

You looked pretty good doing pushups necked!

 

[MonadnockVol]

You can also just increase the incline. I don't see why people are arguing about this -- just get out and exercise. If your goal is to be a professional athlete you'll probably have to work out harder. Otherwise, common sense is probably >50% of what you need to get into good shape.

FWIW, Roger Bannister trained extensively on a treadmill while a Med Student at Oxford before he broke the 4 minute mile so you know what, if you want to train on a treadmill, and if you're serious about it, you'll probably do ok. Why is this so hard to understand?

-Dr. Wu

I agree. Remember Christine Clark, the winner of the 2000 U.S. Olympic Marathon Trials? She was from Anchorage, AK, and did 2/3 of her winter training on a treadmill. So - like Nike says - just do it.

My two cents.

 

[coldfeet]

Rik, you had 2 different looks when I first met you on Big Slide.....going up and then the frosted beard look coming back down....

ps....great job this weekend.....I'm so glad to have met some other wild and crazy folks, who party and exercise!