Messner or Viesturs

[Puma concolor]

Interesting little article.

The Guinness Book of World Records has stripped Reinhold Messner of his status as being the first to summit all 14 8000 meter peaks based on the alleged location of the true summit of Annapurna. Lots of other folks weren’t there either. Steady Ed is now the man or so says Guinness.

Does anyone care? Yes and no, it would seem.

Guinness Revokes Messner’s World Records

 

[Grey J]

I don't really care about the record but I loved Viesturs' book on his quest, even though I can't recall the title. Always liked his mantra that "getting to the summit is optional but getting back down is mandatory." Words to (literally) live by.

 

[maineguy]

"No Shortcuts to the Top" ...an excellent book

 

[maineguy]

Interesting little article.

The Guinness Book of World Records has stripped Reinhold Messner of his status as being the first to summit all 14 8000 meter peaks based on the alleged location of the true summit of Annapurna. Lots of other folks weren’t there either. Steady Ed is now the man or so says Guinness.

Does anyone care? Yes and no, it would seem.

Guinness Revokes Messner’s World Records

Didn't he sign the register in the canister?

 

[Ear Drum]

Over on the 14er's (Colorado) facebook page, someone posted this or similar. The consensus in numerous comments was fairly unanimous: the mountaineering community doesn't care about Guiness, and it isn't the authority to judge or measure these things; and Messner is still the man.

 

[maineguy]

I thought that Elizabeth Hawley was the final authority on such things...

 

[skiguy]

Another take on the subject. A bit more cerebral IMO than Guiness's Cracker Jack style. Claiming the Summit Without Reaching the Top (Published 2021)

 

[Grey J]

Excellent article. Much to consider and no simple answer. Thanks for posting that skiguy. I loved the scrolling photo effect from on high.

 

[DayTrip]

Didn't Viesturs specifically mention that he had been on Annapurna a few times and knew he wouldn't be able to get to the true summit along that narrow ridge because of snow conditions? I think he didn't bag it until his 3rd attempt. So he knew the location of true summit. Isn't this the one Messner didn't technically summit? If so I'd have to say he shouldn't get credit for the literal accomplishment of the list. It was a significant distance, danger level, etc. It wasn't like he was 100 feet off the center of a flattish summit or something.

It's really just a technical list thing for record purposes. At some point you have to split hairs over who did what. You can't have two people in "kinda first place". Messner's accomplishments are obviously extraordinary and he was a leading alpinist in his time. I believe Ed Viestur's said as much in his response in an article I read. As far as he's concerned Messner is the first 14'er on the books. Climbing to anywhere near the top of Annapurna is a big deal no matter how you look at it.

 

[Puma concolor]

^^^^

This is exactly correct. I remember following Viesturs closely when he was chasing the 8K meter peaks and trying to become the first American to summit all 14. His standard was high and he endured criticism for his Shishapangma “turn around” (as noted in the article skiguy linked) so he did what many mountaineers do … went back, tagged the true summit and forever shut up the critics. I thought Annapurna would be the one Ed would never get and was shocked when his third attempt that basically took in the entire long ridge succeeded. It almost had the feel of a suicide mission at the time … until he summited. So even if you want to say Messner’s record should stand, Viesturs deserves recognition for his insane standard.

Years later, in my own little amateur climbing world, I faced scrutiny for my initial Rainier summit, where my team reached the southeast crater rim in an intense snowstorm. Good enough, says the National Park Service and all of the guide services. And quite honestly, it was good enough for me. But I was chasing the 50 state highpoints and started to hear the whispers. Only Columbia Crest counts. I decided ultimately that if I succeeded on Denali, I’d go back for a second time so as to solidify my resume. So go back I did, this time via the Emmons Glacier Route, which leads directly to Columbia Crest. In doing so, I also forever shut up the doubters.

Even in our own little Northeast hiking world, how many of us old-timers have gone back to tag Wildcat D or the new summit of Owl’s Head? I mean, the tippy top is a thing in all levels of peakbagging. Once you make a public claim to anything (even on just the internet), you open yourself up to the scrutiny of others. Climb your own climb, hike your own hike and all that but there will always be Elizabeth Hawleys, Eberhard Jurgalskis and self-appointed guardians of the truth out there watching and judging.

 

[Puma concolor]

I thought that Elizabeth Hawley was the final authority on such things...

**was**

Elizabeth Hawley

 

[Cartophile]

As Puma concolor says, in our Northeast hiking world, there's the matter of tagging the new summits when the lists get revised. But what if you started with the latest list? I did that. Rather, I've wanted to hike the *old* 111 list, and I still need to tag Middle Abraham. I've scouted the route, but I need another chance.

 

[maineguy]

**was**

Elizabeth Hawley

Yeah, I know. What I meant was that she must have signed off on his Annapurna climb, no. Did they wait for her to die to question his summit accomplishment?

 

[Puma concolor]

So Hawley ran the Himalayan Database whereas Jurgalski’s “authority” comes from 8000ers.com, which he runs.

This is all basically new information from last year that was “discovered” after Hawley had passed. The Guinness Book of Records just made its own assessment of the new data to reach its conclusion.

This article provides some pretty specific information on the whole thing and how the “controversy” came about.

If Reinhold Messner wasn’t the first person to climb all the 8,000m peaks, who was?

In it, Messner says this:

‘If they say maybe on Annapurna I got five meters below the summit, somewhere on this long ridge, I feel totally OK… I will not even defend myself. If somebody would come and say, this is all bullshit what you did? Think what you want,’ Messner told reporter John Branch.

I just find the whole thing interesting and somewhat relatable to my own much smaller scale travels. One morning last year, I woke up to find that Lists of John had changed its accepted location of the true high point of Pennsylvania based on new LIDAR data, placing it on a ridge nearby Mount Davis. Having nothing better to do one day last summer, I went down and checked it out and found the alleged new highpoint (I have no opinion on which is higher) after a pretty thick bushwhack. I know not many folks here care about highpointing, but if the LIDAR data is accurate, it would also mean that probably/maybe no one has completed the NE 770, which many people here do care about.

Like so.

Pennsylvania State Highpoint

 

[sierra]

I just noticed this thread and it's an interesting discussion. I grew up following Messner, he was one of my hero's when I was cutting my teeth, so to speak. His book the "5th grade" sat on my table for quite some time as inspiration. Messner was pretty bad ass, he's what I refer to as "old school", those guys were on the cutting edge, summiting all the 14ers was not common, things are harder when they are new, then the knowledge and fact that it's been done, brings it down a few levels. That being said, Ed Viesturs is no slouch, I actually met him, when he did a slideshow on one of his climbs, about 30 years ago or so. Viesturs to me was a more "Modern" climber to me. Very methodical and safe, his diligence to safely climb routes was legendary and he would not hesitate to turn around, just a different mindset then some of the old school climbers. Both incredible climbers. Should the title of first be removed? Tough call, but at the end of the day, with the idiocrasies that go into records, facts are the one thing that rule in the end, there is no ambiguity in pure facts.

 

[skiguy]

I just noticed this thread and it's an interesting discussion. I grew up following Messner, he was one of my hero's when I was cutting my teeth, so to speak. His book the "5th grade" sat on my table for quite some time as inspiration. Messner was pretty bad ass, he's what I refer to as "old school", those guys were on the cutting edge, summiting all the 14ers was not common, things are harder when they are new, then the knowledge and fact that it's been done, brings it down a few levels. That being said, Ed Viesturs is no slouch, I actually met him, when he did a slideshow on one of his climbs, about 30 years ago or so. Viesturs to me was a more "Modern" climber to me. Very methodical and safe, his diligence to safely climb routes was legendary and he would not hesitate to turn around, just a different mindset than some of the old school climbers. Both incredible climbers. Should the title of first be removed? Tough call, but at the end of the day, with the idiocrasies that go into records, facts are the one thing that rule in the end, there is no ambiguity in pure facts.

Messner’s Solo climb without Oxygen of Everest is amazing. Not to mention it was done in Alpine Style. Any one who sets out to climb Everest in the dark and falls in a crevasse by themself, climbs out and continues on to successfully Summit has got some of the biggest balls on the planet.

 

[sierra]

Messner’s Solo climb without Oxygen of Everest is amazing. Not to mention it was done in Alpine Style. Any one who sets out to climb Everest in the dark and falls in a crevasse by themself, climbs out and continues on to successfully Summit has got some of the biggest balls on the planet.

A lot of those guys back then were pretty hardcore, the Brits, the Italians, just a class of amazing climbers setting the standard. Once in Boston, I met Doug Scott, you want to talk about balls. He took a fall on the OGRE and broke both his legs at 23k. I saw a picture of him sitting in the snow smoking a cigarette smiling, while Chris Bonnington and crew were taking a break from lowering him down the face. When I broke my ankle in CO I was by myself at 14k, that meeting and lecture I went to about Doug Scott helped me get through the night and day.

 

[skiguy]

A lot of those guys back then were pretty hardcore, the Brits, the Italians, just a class of amazing climbers setting the standard. Once in Boston, I met Doug Scott, you want to talk about balls. He took a fall on the OGRE and broke both his legs at 23k. I saw a picture of him sitting in the snow smoking a cigarette smiling, while Chris Bonnington and crew were taking a break from lowering him down the face. When I broke my ankle in CO I was by myself at 14k, that meeting and lecture I went to about Doug Scott helped me get through the night and day.

Well said and done. Sport is not "Adventure". This video is a stark contrast to the latest exploits of late where Helicopters and down climbing to set fixed lines to obtain so called "Records".

 

[Puma concolor]

While his status as the first to summit all 14 8K meter peaks may be in question, Messner’s status as one of the great adventurers of all time is not.

Messner’s exploits took place and were well-documented before my time and as a young man, I read quite a number of his books and continued to read his new offerings all the way up to My Life at the Limit. I would rate him as one of my primary influences in terms of acceptance of risk and how I look at the world in general. While I also like and admire Viesturs, I can’t really say he has inspired me in any way.

Anyway, both retain places of honor on my living room book shelf.