Randonee (AT) vs Telemarking?

[deanmacg]

Tele is way more addictive.

 

[dave.m]

Interesting theory, but it doesn't follow my observations. I know plenty of expert tele skiers who have full time jobs, it's not rocket science.

Dave, did you come from a strong alpine background?

In a former life I used to do that whole PSIA alpine instructor thing. No worries folks, I can't ski that good anymore.

Now I'm all nordic from edgeless xc gear to T1s/mid-fats and a lot of rigs in between.

I'm a wretched tele skier compared to my old alpine skills. Locking the heel does make things easier by leaps and bounds, imo. I'm sure somebody could learn tele and p-turns on modern plastic tele boots fast enough these days but compared to how fast they would learn p-turns on modern alpine gear? No question, imo.

I think across the board new skiers will hit development milestones on alpine gear faster.

But do note, this has little to do with which is best for hacking around in the pucker bush. Arguably, the only turns you need for skiing int eh woods is the snow plow and the step turn. After that, it's all gravy. And speaking of gravy....

Nothing compares to low angle tele turns in the woods!!

 

[Seeker]

I'm not sure about the learning curve being longer. If you take two people who've never skied before I suspect they'd take about the same time to become an intermediate skier in either discipline. I suspect that they'd be even quicker to come up to speed on a snowboard, but where's the fun in that.

-dave-

Um, no? If you may recall, when I was learning to tele, I handled alpine boards much easier then tele. For someone coming from a non skiing background, I can say that tele is much harder, hands down, to get up to intermediate speed on.

Remember Gunstock, for example?

I agree that heavy tele has become resort oriented. In fact, I predict that it is a fad that will slide into obscurity in much the same way that ballet skiing has. IMO, the only reason to use heavy tele is for style -- the telemark turn.

LOL!!! Too funny! I couldn't disagree more. I see more and more people on tele at the resort. And the interest in tele has skyrocketed in our AMC workshops. The heavier gear makes it much easier to learn.

And let's face it, the turn is SWEET!

 

[Halite]

But do note, this has little to do with which is best for hacking around in the pucker bush. Arguably, the only turns you need for skiing int eh woods is the snow plow and the step turn. After that, it's all gravy. And speaking of gravy....

Nothing compares to low angle tele turns in the woods!!

Can we get an "Amen" for brother dave.m

Couldn't agree more. Although I still enjoy chasing down my alpine skiing brethren on the slopes--p-turns for speed and endurance.

As my earlier posts suggested, I believe locked down heel is way more efficient and can imagine I will be going in that direction in the future.

 

[DougPaul]

I'm a wretched tele skier compared to my old alpine skills. Locking the heel does make things easier by leaps and bounds, imo. I'm sure somebody could learn tele and p-turns on modern plastic tele boots fast enough these days but compared to how fast they would learn p-turns on modern alpine gear? No question, imo.

I think across the board new skiers will hit development milestones on alpine gear faster.

Just another datapoint:

I have never used a locked-heel binding or alpine ski rig--my heritage is completely Nordic gear starting with edgeless wood and up to modern mid-fat tele skis and T2s. Started tele and parallel turns with the AMC Norpine workshop at Wachusett about 5 years ago. Mostly self-taught (from books, plus a few tele lessons) since then. Even on edged backcountry and tele gear, I found the parallel turn easier to learn and it is now my safety turn. I can ski harder terrain using my parallel turn (carved or skidded) than using my tele turn. (This is all on NE hard-packed piste.)

On the other hand, my backcountry powder tele is better than my backcountry powder parallel. (I rarely try to parallel in powder so lack of
practice could be an issue.)

So FWIW, on piste, I found the parallel turn easier to learn than the tele, even using modern tele gear.

Nothing compares to low angle tele turns in the woods!!

Hear! Hear!

Doug

 

[dave.m]

LOL!!! Too funny! I couldn't disagree more. I see more and more people on tele at the resort. And the interest in tele has skyrocketed in our AMC workshops. The heavier gear makes it much easier to learn.

I would be very happy to be wrong on my prediction. A couple of things to consider though...

1) I am only talking about heavy tele. Think T2s, T1s and Cable and plate bindings. I think nordic backcountry gear will continue on, as will the tele turn. But telemark, the sport, will fade away and once again become nordic skiing (as it was before).

2) Truely resort capable AT bindings and AT boots are now available. Even 5 years ago if you wanted 1 rig for bc and resort, it meant heavy tele. This is no longer the case.

3) AT is begining to catch and eclipse heavy tele offerings in many retailers. AT is more efficient for up and down bc and steep terrain and the US retailers are following something.

4) NTN, the new telemark norm lurks in the shadows. By all accounts it is more of a downhill and skinning oriented norm which makes more sense for heavy boots but little to no sense for lighter boots like the Excusion. This will, in my reading, force manufacturers to choose which boots in their line to continue in the old 75mm Tele Norm and which to convert to NTN. There are only 3 manufacturers of tele boots and it isn't clear they will all convert. Rumors on TelemarkTips forums suggest that the recent divorce between Black Diamond and Scarpa was over the NTN issue. I predict that 1 of the 3 boot makers will get out of the heavy tele line within a few years of NTN coming out. To my uninformed eyes, I would think Crispi is the first to go but Scarpa may actually be weaker than Garmont.

And let's face it, the turn is SWEET!

It is sweet. So were tip rolls, royal christies, cross-overs and all the other Wayne Wong/Suzee Chaffee inspired moves that my high-school Geze-binding wearing homies were in love with. And were's the love of ballet today? Heck, where's the gear?

Margins on niche markets are terribly tiny. Try finding a decent sport touring bike today. You need to get a custom or near-custom frame pretty much. These niches can collapse in a heart beat.

But the makers of nordic backcountry gear, imo, are still tied to the striding efficiency of nordic gear. I see that market persisting. Thankfully.

 

[sardog1]

But the makers of nordic backcountry gear, imo, are still tied to the striding efficiency of nordic gear. I see that market persisting. Thankfully.

Hi, my name is Charlie and I'm a skiaholic.

Looked around the basement last night and counted four pair -- skate, cross country, nordic BC, and sorta-heavy tele. Then my gaze was drawn uncontrollably to the Web, where I chanced upon a pair of 215 cm Bonna 2000s for sale on
Cross-Country Wooden Skis . Just like the pair I broke coming out of the Chugach Mountains above Anchorage. (The only time I ever needed a spare tip, I needed two and had but one. "Hey, before I come inside, I need to tell you that my face is a little banged up. But it looks way worse than it is. Really.") Someone please stop me now, before I go looking for a pair of Norrøna boots to match them.

How long before we retro types are back on solid hickory boards again???

 

[DougPaul]

Hi, my name is Charlie and I'm a skiaholic.

Looked around the basement last night and counted four pair -- skate, cross country, nordic BC, and sorta-heavy tele.

Only four pairs?

Then my gaze was drawn uncontrollably to the Web, where I chanced upon a pair of 215 cm Bonna 2000s for sale

My 200 cm Bonna 2000s (my first skis) are sitting in the cellar. Some snow and a little wax is all they need...

I'm sure I could tele on them if the occasion presented itself. (Had to mention tele to stay on topic. )

How long before we retro types are back on solid hickory boards again???

I still miss the adhesion and stickiness of wax on wood. And burn-in grundvalla (pine tar).

Doug

 

[David Metsky]

Only four pairs?

I agree. Have you met Dana?

I still miss the adhesion and stickiness of wax on wood. And burn-in grundvalla (pine tar).

Not me, I was very glad the day I could put the pine tar away forever.

As to the AT vs Heavy Tele on lifts, why bother using AT gear on lifts? It's exactly the same feel as regular alpine gear with worse reliability and release. If people are going to alpine ski, they'll stay on alpine gear, for the most part. I can alpine just fine, I gave it up because tele is more fun. Tele on heavy tele gear is especially fun. Maybe it'll end up being a small niche market some day, but I don't see why it would. Time will tell. AT gear is improving quickly, so is tele gear. It's a good time to be a skier.

Um, no? If you may recall, when I was learning to tele, I handled alpine boards much easier then tele. For someone coming from a non skiing background, I can say that tele is much harder, hands down, to get up to intermediate speed on.

Remember Gunstock, for example?

All true.

But imagine if you had started tele on Syner-Gs, Hammerheads, and She's Pistes instead of the crap I found for you? You're probaby right that alpine is a bit easier to start with since there's more movement to coordinate with tele, but I think the gap has narrowed.

Think snow,

-dave-

 

[xtraterrestrial]

I've skied exclusively on AT gear for at least the last 15 years, even though I live in the mid-Atlantic. I'm still using the same 15 year old silvretta 404's on the skis used for lift served days, and I STILL consider those bindings very very reliable. My AT boots (Lazers) are extremely comfortable, even on long climbs out of skis, and have been worn exclusively on 2 and 3 week expeditions in AK and Canada. In fact, I don't use alpine skis or bindings anymore, they're not necessary. So for me, one pair of skis can do it all, and do it very well. Overkill for the mid-Atlantic? yes, but I can use this set up anywhere. I do have to fend off odd looks from folks on tele or bc gear, probably the same kinds of looks Hummer drivers get.

 

[Halite]

I do have to fend off odd looks from folks on tele or bc gear, probably the same kinds of looks Hummer drivers get.

I would hope you would only get that kind of look if you were on a snowmobile

It's good to hear about the durability and versatility of your AT setup for on and off-piste. I've thought about doing this set-up for my son so he can join me in the BC but still ski lift-served. Probably need to keep him out of the terrain park, though.

 

[Seeker]

All true.

But imagine if you had started tele on Syner-Gs, Hammerheads, and She's Pistes instead of the crap I found for you? You're probaby right that alpine is a bit easier to start with since there's more movement to coordinate with tele, but I think the gap has narrowed.

Think snow,

-dave-

Make that Venus boots, Cobras and Betty's and you're on!

I still think alpine/pturning is easier.

1) I am only talking about heavy tele. Think T2s, T1s and Cable and plate bindings. I think nordic backcountry gear will continue on, as will the tele turn. But telemark, the sport, will fade away and once again become nordic skiing (as it was before).

I hate to say it, but there are a lot more ski and boot offerings that fit into the heavy tele range than there are the lighter Excursion/Outtas range. Or even lighter than that.

I've been trying to locate a Scarpa T3 or T4 for a friend who wants a light bc tele setup because I think Scarpa fits his foot better, but the only boot sold in Boston is the Excursion.

Whereas if you want heavy tele, you've got the choice between Ener-Gs, Syner-Gs, TX2, T1s and all the Crispi versions of that size.

If there is a trend away from heavy tele, I have yet to see it!!

Methinks this might be wishful thinking??