Safety in hiking

[brianW]

I feel this is a media driven story. Young attractive grad student killed in the outdoors by a creepy old man. How many people vanish or are killed by strangers in the US daily, weekly, mothly, yearly....... How many are reported by the media? I bet not many, just the ones that get them viewers.

How many "creepy" people have you seen while getting gas? going to the convineince store? I personally feel you are safer in the woods then in an urban/suburban area.

Do not get me wrong. This is a very tragic and sad story.

 

[forestgnome]

With all due respect to all posters, we can fill 100 pages of anecdotes about thousands of miles hiked without incidence. We can recite the odds of dying in a car crash on the way to the trailhead vs. those of being attacked in the woods. We can even site myths about the dangers of carrying heat because the perp might get the victim's gun and use it (which occasionally even happens to cops and guards, but I think an unarmed cop/courthouse guard is beyond foolish). All of these ideas are very well recited.

The OP's intent of this thread is about self-protection, for those who consider it to be important. Those who do not will only offer reasons to not be concerned. That is of no interest. We know that such evil people are rare, but exist.

I hike solo exclusively, and my heart is utterly light when I'm in the woods alone. When I encounter others, that doesn't change. There has been only one time when my senses were raised, so I was ready. As Maddy wisely states, I kept a good distance.

OK, so on to the OP's point. I won't advocate on this bb that women carry heat (and train with it) because last time I got yelled at and called all sorts of nasty names.

happy trails

 

[sli74]

I think the one important to take away from this is that everyone's experiences and safety threshold is different. There is no one right answer to this question. I don't think it is either fair to claim that people are over-reacting nor is it fair to claim that hiking solo is too dangerous and noone should do it, ever. It always amuses me a bit how frequently we think in terms of always or never or in terms of either extreme.

That said, I am torn about the issue of safety (both while hiking and not). But since this is a hiking site and the title of this thread is about hiking, I am going to focus on safety while hiking but this does not imply that I believe I am more at risk in the woods than out of the woods.

I don't get the chance to hike solo much anymore since I am lucky enough to have found a lifelong hiking partner. But all in all . . . I like to hike solo sometimes, it is calming and occasionaly I miss it. Even when Brian and I hike together, I prefer many times to be a little ways behind him, meandering at my own pace, lost in my own thoughts. Sometimes I will feel chatty and I will talk his ear off and other times we won't really interact for hours. But, the death of Meredith Emerson has made me realize that I am more likely a target now than when I truly hiked all alone back before 2004.

My safety threshold has significantly decreased since Brian has come into my life. My "creep" radar is on low unlike when I was truly hiking solo. I am much more likely to engage someone who might have strange tendencies because I feel "safe" with Brian there or nearby. Does that make sense?

I read about some of the precautions other women here take and think about and I don't know if I have ever thought that way and I know I certainly don't think that way now . . . but maybe it is time to consider what I would do. I don't carry any sort of weapon, but maybe pepper spray is not a bad idea.

I also have met men who have creeped my out in the past . . . I can think of atleast 3 specific instances and each time I chose to move along quickly. Once I even left a shelter and camped WAY off trail to avoid a strange man. I agree with Maddy that it is better to ignore stats and not become one . . .

Anyway, I am rambling but this is a great thread with lots of food for thought.

sli74

 

[sli74]

How many "creepy" people have you seen while getting gas? going to the convineince store? I personally feel you are safer in the woods then in an urban/suburban area.

Brian, I see your point but even though I see more "creepy" people on the bus to work, I don't feel as vulnerable as when I encounter a "creepy" person on the trail. Maybe that doesn't make sense to many others and I cannot explain it any better but when the situation arises which is not as often on the trail, it feels worse.

sli74

 

[Chip]

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that we are ALL safer when not solo. I'm not saying I never hike solo, but it definately adds a dimension to the hike that's easily avoided if it makes you uncomfortable. On a personal note, it's easier on my wife when I'm not solo, too. She doesn't worry about me, which allows me to relax and enjoy my hike.

Regarding guns and dogs in the woods; in order to be effective they have to be "used" before you're injured. If you're not injured yet "the creep" hasn't actually done anything wrong - yet. If you are injured you may be incapacitated. A trained, leashed dog or a drawn gun may deter the criminal, but there's alot of downside. If your injury is a result of an accident, the gun or dog may be of little use.

Easier to invite someone else along.

 

[Gris]

OK, I'll play the role of sexist...

I think this is much more of a concern to women. Women are, as a general rule much more vulnerable. Really, how many "creepy" women predators/serial killers are out there? The predators are by and large male. And they seem to prey on women mostly. So, I think how you look at this issue depends largely upon whether you are male or female and, if male, how well you can identify with being female. E.g., I never worry about my 22 YO son no matter what he does. But when my 19 YO daughter and two girlfriends decided to drive across the country and back this past summer, camping the whole way w/o any plan or itinerary... My wife and I worried oursleves sick the whole 3.5 weeks they were gone (and bought them all mace on a key-chain).

 

[Bobby]

If a creepy person on the bus tries to harm you, the expectation is that someone on the bus will help. On the trail, you are absolutely more vulnerable, especially if you're alone.

As I stated in the missing hiker thread, most of us have weapons in our hands at any given time when hiking. One unfortunate thing is that by the time we figure out people have bad intentions, it's usually too late react. Again, distance is a major factor. Ten to fifteen feet away from an unarmed, or no weapon visible person, is enough space to defend yourself. You have to be ready, willing and able to misuse some of your hiking equipment in order to disable an attacker.

Chemical mace is not a great defense product. Pepper spray, or OC spray, is more effective and works on a majority of people. In MA, you need a Firearms Identification Card to carry OC spray. You should keep the canister somewhere where you can get at it fast, such as the hip belt or sternum strap, and discharge it right into a persons face. Then run as fast as you can. I would also advise if you're going to carry OC spray, keep it in the same place all the time and practice reaching for it and getting ready to discharge it. In times of great stress, your body and mind will react without you even thinking about it.

Have some type of plan in mind about how you would handle an attack. I still think the chance of an incident is small, it is always better to be prepared.

 

[brianW]

Experts teach kids to fight, scream, do any thing to get away if a stranger tries to abduct them. Maybe this should be cosidered for anyone.

Local news down in Augusta, GA area mentioned that the body of Merideth Emerson was located near the outlets in Dawsonville, GA. This area my family and I visited last April and reminds me of a lot of the shopping areas in North Conway.

 

[Dugan]

Fighting doesn't always work.

 

[Rik]

Fighting doesn't always work.

I don't think anything always works.

 

[Adk_dib]

I solo hike and I have never felt afraid for myself from other hikers (I am a 6 foot 190 lb male). Most woman I have seen on the trail do hike in groups of at least 2 which is good. What I am usually afraid of is my car in the parking lot. I left for a hike last weekend and was only car in parking lot. Just before I left 2 cars with 6 young males got out of car. None of them had climbing equipment so all I could think of on my climb was that they were going to wait till I left and break in my car. When they did not catch me on the trail I thought I was right. Finally passed them on way down. they were obviously begginers and had no snow shoes. (I did not yell at them for post holeing, there were 6 of them and one of me ).

 

[Dugan]

True, and exactly what I was meaning to point out.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Fwiw

I have been reading about deaths from these sociopaths for a long time. Since I heard about Ted Bundy and Henry Lucas and his dimwitted sidekick O’toole and I have a couple of observations. Usually it is women that this happens to but could happen to anyone. Regardless, if someone wants my truck they can have it. If they want my wallet they can have it. If they want me, and in particular if they want to move me from where I am to somewhere else we are going to have a fight. Anything they want to do to me they can do right where I am standing. If I get knifed or shot, so be it. What they won’t do is take me somewhere entirely secluded where they hold all the cards and can do whatever they want to do for days on end. The military teaches you in escape and evasion school that the longer you are in the control of the enemy, the more layers are added to reduce your ability to escape. The more time he has contact with you, it is likely that you will have less and less control over the situation.

My first thought is that there are millions of dollars and thousand of vehicle out in the towns and cities so why would someone come to the wilderness to steal my money or vehicle? Anyone accosting someone out in the wilderness right from the start it seems ominous to me and I personally would expect ulterior motives. Women, short of a “Deliverance” episode it is far more likely you will be the target of an attack. Take self defense classes and/or learn how to use and deploy a firearm or other weapons effectively. I don’t apologize about this. It is legal to carry a weapon in NH and to carry in the national forest if you have a NH carry permit. A NH permit is also available to out of state people if you possess a valid out of state permit from most states. If you want to know how you can get one email me. If you don’t feel comfortable with lethal force and responsibilities that come with that then learn what weapons are near you on the ground or what you carry everyday that might be of use and what vital spots to strike on humans. When I talk about self defense I am not talking about karate or tae-kwon-do I am talking about self defense classes like the RAD class. Nothing wrong with karate, etc. but you are not looking for a sport that takes years to master. Bear in mind that you will be fighting for your life. This is a street fight not a boxing match. There are no rules. Pay particular attention to fighting close in attacks were knees, elbows, your head and fingers are most effective. Even a large man will not tolerate his pinky finger being snapped off. Easy to do, easy to get to if he is holding onto you, and not even Arnold Schwarzenegger’s pinky is strong enough that if a small women latches onto it she can’t give him an extra or bidirectional joint. If his eyes are accessible they are a soft target anyone, regardless of strength or stature can exploit. Either of those will typically distract even the most determined low life long enough to get away. If that doesn’t work (again unlikely) they have another eye and another pinky to exploit. If you really have to, or you are really angry, go through all ten of his fingers but I think that will be unlikely you will need to, though that will make him easier to indentify. You know, in the lineup, it’s the double blind guy with all ten fingers pointing in really weird directions. There are far too many of these techniques to go into here but you get the point. Your best bet is to never get into a situation like this by never letting your guard down and to always pay attention to the little things your mind is saying to you. Don’t be afraid to over react (verbally) and drawing too much attention to yourself. You can always apologize latter, if needed.

Having said all that, it is real, real good to remember that your chance of encountering a piece of trash like this person is very unlikely. While I believe in being prepared I really don’t dwell on this.

Just my $.02,
Keith

 

[una_dogger]

If they want me, and in particular if they want to move me from where I am to somewhere else we are going to have a fight.

I don't know the stats but I remember learning in RAD that the "second crime scene" is where victims of abductions are brutalized and killed -- we were told to do anything and everything in our power to keep from being taken to the second crime scene. Scratching out eyes, kicking,screaming, whatever it takes.

One thing worth mentioning, because I read it so often here and it makes my cringe with worry each time, is NOT posting open calls on the internet -- or keeping details to the bare minimum and requesting pm's from interested parties & getting references from a member you know...just one more thing we can do to assure a bit of our safety. This is a well moderated forum, but over the years here I have recieved more than one creepy pm from lurkers/non posting users....this site has so many "guests" viewing at anyone time...who knows who these people are and why give them information about one's whereabouts when we enter the woods, sometimes alone? Food for thought...others may disagree and feel this is an unnecessary practice and believe me, I wish the world was a warm and fuzzy place where I could invite a stranger on a hike in the hopes of making a new friend....but..

I too, have been thinking so much about Meredith. Even on my daily walk in our local conservation area with Terra yesterday I found myself on alert. I know that when I meet someone hiking/walking with thier dog, I often let my guard down, simply because they are out there doing what I'm doing, and let the dogs play. It sickens me to think that this man probably used this common situation among dog people to lure Meredith.

I may get flamed for this, but here goes..I hope they have the death penalty in Georgia.

Still so angry and saddened by this event... the autopsy report brought chills to my spine. I cannot imagine her horror and what she must have gone through for those three days.

 

[Maddy]

I may get flamed for this, but here goes..I hope they have the death penalty in Georgia.

A GA prosecutor negotiated with him to not pursue the death penalty if he led them to Meredith's body.
Just read on CNN that the DA may not honor this bargain. They are also talking about pursuing the death penalty for the other murders he may have committed.
He is a suspect now in a Florida hiker murder as well.
I wonder how many more...........

 

[forestgnome]

I'm very happy with this thread so far...lots of good, valuable points civily made...

There was once a thread here where a female OP discussed where to camp, and eventually told her location deciscion, dates, and the fact that she was going alone. Her avatar showed a full-length body shot of herself, and she looked fairly attractive. The idea that rapes are not for sex is overstated.

I thought that was a foolish thread, but I never commented for fear of being labelled a weirdo for thinking about it.

Another time, I met a really nice young lady at Champney Falls TH who was thrilled with an antler I showed her. We talked of our love of nature. She told me of her itinerary to camp alone at the base of Owl's Cliff, which is off-trail. This time she correctly sensed she was talking to a harmless person, but I think she was foolish. I didn't say so, but I thought it immediately.

Our brains are our greatest tools.

happy trails

 

[MichaelJ]

Experts teach kids to fight, scream, do any thing to get away if a stranger tries to abduct them. Maybe this should be cosidered for anyone.

At least with an adult it would be taken more seriously. How many times have you (anyone) seen a child fighting, screaming, trying to get away from an adult but snared by the jacket, and it's their own child but just a temper tantrum? I don't want to see a child abducted, but I also don't want our society to live in such fear that any yelling child trying to get their way results in Mom or Dad sitting in a locked room until they can prove it's their own kid.

 

[Maddy]

I'm very happy with this thread so far...lots of good, valuable points civily made...

There was once a thread here where a female OP discussed where to camp, and eventually told her location deciscion, dates, and the fact that she was going alone. Her avatar showed a full-length body shot of herself, and she looked fairly attractive. The idea that rapes are not for sex is overstated.

I thought that was a foolish thread, but I never commented for fear of being labelled a weirdo for thinking about it.

Another time, I met a really nice young lady at Champney Falls TH who was thrilled with an antler I showed her. We talked of our love of nature. She told me of her itinerary to camp alone at the base of Owl's Cliff, which is off-trail. This time she correctly sensed she was talking to a harmless person, but I think she was foolish. I didn't say so, but I thought it immediately.

Our brains are our greatest tools.

happy trails

I think you bring up an excellent point.
First example....scary.
The second example depicts two people having fun and engaging in interesting conversation. I think we can all continue to engage others and have a great time but still keep a distance and not throw caution to the wind. Unfortunately she gave you way too much info regarding her personal plans.
An antler can be admired from a distance without compromising your personal space.

 

[--M.]

Great point, fg.

I'm reticent for other reasons than fear for my safety, but I notice all the time how people give up LOTS of personal info right here on these pages. Some are completely comfortable providing, for example, their real names..., and that's not an irrational choice (I'm not decrying it).

But when you add up an experience the way you did in your first example (fg), I think sometimes people are a little careless with their personal space.

Making a conscious decision that one is among friends is different from unknowingly divulging personal data to a stranger.

No one should operate out of fear, but even climax predators (sharks, polar bears, linebackers) know what's on their periphery. Just be smaht.

 

[amstony]

I may get flamed for this, but here goes..I hope they have the death penalty in Georgia.
.

They negotiated the death penalty away in Georgia to locate Meredith and get the details of what happened, but Florida and NC are a different story.

Florida's investigation will take a different track, and in Florida they do use the death penalty on a regular basis.

If he is tied to the 2 murders in North Carolina he could also go meet his maker in that state, they also have the death penalty.

I would not lose ANY sleep about this guy getting fried.