The latest GPS thhread - Garmin or Delorme

[Stash]

I'm about to get a serious discount at LL Bean (holiday help) and am considering upgrading to a "real" GPS from my old eTrex. Looking at either the DeLorme® Earthmate PN-60 GPS with Topo North America 9.0 or the Garmin Oregon 450t.

Things for me to consider are pretty simple:

• 90% of my hiking is winter. Trails get hidden at times without much for markings. It would be nice to have something that shows established trails and my relative location rather than simply being able to enter coordinates and find where I am in relation to where I want to go. It's really about the only driver for looking at something new (compass and map or guestimating wth the eTrex still keep me from getting too lost).
• Not hugely concerned about signal being blocked by tree cover as there are few leaves in winter (though the pines on some trails can get thick)
• Preference for rechargable batteries that last. I have yet to pick up a double/triple A charger. Would be nice if there was something specific to the GPS.
• Some of the new stuff has aerial photographs and satellite imagery. I think that's a bit overkill.
• I'm hearing Delorme has proprietary software that may be a bit of a hassle. Their main office is literally down the street so access isn't a problem. Is cost really that much of a factor.

Any general experiences or preferences?


Thanks!

 

[DSettahr]

I've used both Delorme and Garmin GPS units pretty extensively, so here's my rundown:

In terms of ease of use in the field, Delorme edges out Garmin, but only just barely. Great resolution in the display, easy to mark points while you're in the field, great for navigation, etc. Not that Garmin isn't difficult to use in any manner, but Delorme is simply a little bit better.

Where Garmin really takes the edge over Delorme is for professional uses. There are tons of free programs out there that can interface with Garmin, which allow you to do a lot with the information. Delorme gps units store data using their own format, which is readily accessible using Delmore-developed software. Finding software that can convert that data to other formats for use with other programs can be difficult, and it usually isn't free (this is the issue with proprietary data that you've heard about). Honestly, for 99% of casual hikers, this shouldn't be an issue. If you're looking to do more with your data than just use it for navigation, though, it's worth a consideration. For example, if you want to make nice maps of where you've been, or import your data into google earth, etc., there's a good chance you'll run into this issue with a Delorme gps unit.

You *may* run into an issue with uploading information to a Delorme that you find on the internet, I'm not too sure how the Delorme is with reverse compatibility (uploading information that was recorded on a different kind of GPS unit).

I wouldn't worry too much about the detailed satellite photos/topo maps. That stuff is usually sold separately- if you don't want it, just don't buy it.

I have used rechargeable batteries with the Delorme, and they don't last at all. I've not used them with the Garmin.

 

[Mohamed Ellozy]

Delorme gps units store data using their own format, which is readily accessible using Delmore-developed software. Finding software that can convert that data to other formats for use with other programs can be difficult, and it usually isn't free (this is the issue with proprietary data that you've heard about). Honestly, for 99% of casual hikers, this shouldn't be an issue. If you're looking to do more with your data than just use it for navigation, though, it's worth a consideration. For example, if you want to make nice maps of where you've been, or import your data into google earth, etc., there's a good chance you'll run into this issue with a Delorme gps unit.

GPSBabel, which is free, can convert DeLorme PN-20/PN-30/PN-40 USB protocol to almost anything ... no idea whether the PN-60 uses the same format.

There is a wealth of free Garmin compatible maps available.

 

[DougPaul]

You *may* run into an issue with uploading information to a Delorme that you find on the internet, I'm not too sure how the Delorme is with reverse compatibility (uploading information that was recorded on a different kind of GPS unit).

GPSBabel should be able to convert the info (waypoints, routes, and tracks--but not maps) into compatible formats. Check the docs for compatibility with the Delorme unit of interest.

I wouldn't worry too much about the detailed satellite photos/topo maps. That stuff is usually sold separately- if you don't want it, just don't buy it.

I believe that one can also make ones own photo maps. FWIW, the Garmin units are limited to fairly small photos.

I have used rechargeable batteries with the Delorme, and they don't last at all. I've not used them with the Garmin.

I use almost nothing but rechargeable NiMH AA batteries in my Garmin 60CSx. I have gotten up to 26 hours with the GPS in normal mode. See http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38355 for details.

Something else that you should consider--push buttons vs touch screen. If you choose touch screen, make sure that you can operate it with gloves and mittens. Touch screens also tend to collect dirt, grit, etc from hands. (I was just hiking today and had pine pitch and whatever stuck to it on my hands...) If the dirt, grit, etc abrades the screen, it may decrease its readability and the screen may require more cleaning than the screen on a push-button unit. FWIW, I prefer buttons.

Doug

 

[Stan]

I don't own nor am I now considering buying a GPS so that naturally makes me an expert but the DeLorme PN 60w has SPOT (by separate subscription) that allows short emails to be transmitted by the satellite system which supports SPOT. This feature could be very useful in an emergency.

 

[DougPaul]

I'm about to get a serious discount at LL Bean (holiday help) and am considering upgrading to a "real" GPS from my old eTrex.

The old eTrex is/was perfectly real, just obsolete now... There are some newer eTrex models which are quite modern.

Not hugely concerned about signal being blocked by tree cover as there are few leaves in winter (though the pines on some trails can get thick)

Tree cover is still an issue, particularly when one is in a relatively narrow canyon.

Preference for rechargable batteries that last. I have yet to pick up a double/triple A charger. Would be nice if there was something specific to the GPS.

As noted in my previous post, I get good lifetimes from NiMH rechargable AAs in my Garmin 60CSx. The 60CSx will also take alkalines and lithium cells (newer 60CSxes only--see http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38355).

AFAIK, no AA-powered GPS has an integrated charger. It cannot reliably determine which battery type has been installed and the effects of charging the wrong type of battery could damage the GPS. You are better off using an external charger. I have posted recommendations in other threads--see http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42491. (Other threads on the topic can be found by searching Entire Posts for the word Maha.)

IMO, replaceable (eg AA) batteries are an important feature for a hiking GPS.

Some of the new stuff has aerial photographs and satellite imagery. I think that's a bit overkill.

Some people find these features to be important (particularly for bushwacking to features which show in aerial photos)--never tried them myself. I just place a waypoint at the location of interest and navigate to it using the waypoint.

I'm hearing Delorme has proprietary software that may be a bit of a hassle. Their main office is literally down the street so access isn't a problem. Is cost really that much of a factor.

Garmin's software is also proprietary, but can read and write GPX (GPS Exchange Format, for waypoints, routes, and tracks, but not maps) which is supported by many manufacturers and GPSBabel. (GPSBabel can also transfer waypoint, route, and track info into and out from a Garmin GPS.) I don't know about Delorme--check the docs.

In general, when you buy a GPS, you also buy into their software, maps, and third-party/free versions. Consider the entire system before buying. Many third-party digital map programs can also talk to a variety of GPS brands and models. (NMEA is a brand-independent protocol for programs to talk to GPSes.) In general, only the manufacturer's software can load maps into a GPS. (One exception: one can sometimes load a proprietary-format file onto a memory card and install it into a GPS which takes removable cards. These files are generally created using the proprietary software.)

Any general experiences or preferences?

I have two (new and old) Garmin 60CSxes and am happy with them--I have little desire to upgrade. (They are discontinued, but may still be available. Some of the newer units add and subtract some features (the Garmin 62s is the closest upgrade), but I'm not convinced that any of them are significant overall improvements.) I am also able to load maps into the GPS, view maps and tracks, and view and create waypoints and routes using Garmin MapSource software. I often use GPSBabel to talk to the GPS. (I generally run Linux here and run MapSource inside the the Wine emulator. I don't know if MapSource can talk to the GPS in this environment, but GPSBabel can. Both can read and write GPX files.)

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I've had good luck with Sanyo's Eneloop rechargeable batteries. Don't cost any more than other rechargeables, but are of the type that don't discharge over time (or so slowly it's insignificant). Get a quality charger - I think Big Earl started a thread on that recently.

Carry a set of lithium batteries when temps approach zero or below. They're spendy, but little affected by cold. Keeping your space set of NiMH warm will help, but sometimes - particularly if you're in a steady wind - lithiums are necessary.

I don't have a preference for those GPS units you listed, as I'm still solidly in the Garmin 60CSx camp, and don't see myself changing for 3-5 years unless there's a dramatic technological breakthru. Like Doug, I have both an old and new 60CSx.

 

[Dunbar]

I had the PN-20. Regularly lost the signal in all kinds of conditions. Just talked to someone a few weeks ago who was using a PN-60 and said he had the same problem.

I've had a Garmin 60CSx for the past two years and have never considered going back to Delorme. Never lost a signal, the software is easier to use, and it does everything I need a GPS to do.

 

[DSettahr]

GPSBabel, which is free, can convert DeLorme PN-20/PN-30/PN-40 USB protocol to almost anything ... no idea whether the PN-60 uses the same format.

There is a wealth of free Garmin compatible maps available.

Interesting- I wish we'd known about this when we were using Delorme for the NFCT. Even Delorme (whom we contacted directly to find out how to convert their files) didn't mention the existence of this program to us, probably because they wanted us to buy their software.

Edit: I notice it can't convert to ArcGIS shapefiles... so close to being the perfect spatial data conversion utility, yet so far... (Not a huge deal since there are other ways to do it, but it would streamline data collection on any of these GPS units for professional uses)

 

[DougPaul]

Edit: I notice it can't convert to ArcGIS shapefiles... so close to being the perfect spatial data conversion utility, yet so far... (Not a huge deal since there are other ways to do it, but it would streamline data collection on any of these GPS units for professional uses)

I suspect that GPSBabel is aimed at consumer GPSes and their file formats--ArcGIS is more of a professional tool. However, GPSBabel is open source--the docs say that they are interested in contributions, perhaps including support for shapefiles...

Doug

 

[freighttrain48]

Carry a set of lithium batteries when temps approach zero or below. They're spendy, but little affected by cold. Keeping your space set of NiMH warm will help, but sometimes - particularly if you're in a steady wind - lithiums are necessary.

.

Kevin you havent had any issues with the unit shutting off with the lithiums in sub zero weather? I was told the lithiums surge when they are cold making the unit shut off. I was told to run them in a flash light and to take them down to about 80%

I use a 60csx and have been quite happy with it. I only use it to track milage in elevation and for the ocasional bushwhack. I dont have any of the software that it came with so I cant do anything with the data The guy I bought it from used never gave it to me)

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Kevin you havent had any issues with the unit shutting off with the lithiums in sub zero weather? I was told the lithiums surge when they are cold making the unit shut off. I was told to run them in a flash light and to take them down to about 80%

I haven't, but ... have only had to use them twice because of sub-zero weather causing NiMH batteries to fail.

Doug stays current on battery issues - perhaps he can offer an opinion on this topic.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I'll offer some observations of my Garmin (76CSx, electrically the same as the 60), and MapSource, etc. now that I have had almost a year to use it. This is my perspective as a user and a software developer as well.

The unit seems to track very well. It locked up exactly once and had to be power-cycled. Sometimes I get a parallel track on the descent to the one on the ascent, off by some 50' or so, which I attribute to the margin of accuracy.

I have been quite pleased with the free maps and WMNF tracks found elsewhere on this forum.

I am somewhat disappointed by what I consider arbitrary restrictions, like 500 points times 20 tracks = 10000 points. I have that 1Gb micro SD card for the maps and it's not very full so there seems to be no reason for this limit. Especially when I put the device in USB mode and I can see way more than 20 previous active logs as files (all yyyymmddx.gpx). I can even copy them off the device even though they have been 'deleted' by the 'erase all' option.

MapSource crashes a lot. Mainly when I try and save a downloaded track and waypoint set as a GPX file. It works fine as a gdb file (binary Garmin format). It does not compute net elevation gain or loss (or if it does, I haven't found the mechanism.) I've sent the crash logs, and e-mailed support and gotten zero response.

If I send a track to the GPS from MapSource, it truncates it with a beep at 500 points. How hard would it be for the software to say "Hey, your track is bigger than 500 points..." and show the filter dialog? This is currently a manual step.

If you are a smartphone user, you will probably be frustrated with the data entry capabilities and wish for a touch screen and full keyboard. I agree with the disadvantages mentioned by Doug previously.

Tim

 

[SAR-EMT40]

After many years in the Garmin camp I have changed over to the Delorme. Here is a link to the data that can be put on both the computer and GPS.

I have a very low opinion of Mapsource and in particular its data.

Delorme screen shots

Keith

 

[Kevin Rooney]

MapSource crashes a lot. Tim

[highjack on]

Interesting. I've been using various versions of MapSource for 8-10 years, and don't recall it ever crashing. I run it in XP.

MapSource is also useful for manipulating data in vehicular GPS'. I have a Garmin 1490T and a 750, and it's the only software I'm aware of which will allow you to manipulate various data files used for Favorites and custom POI's.

[/highjack off]

 

[DougPaul]

Kevin you havent had any issues with the unit shutting off with the lithiums in sub zero weather? I was told the lithiums surge when they are cold making the unit shut off. I was told to run them in a flash light and to take them down to about 80%

Your informant is only partially correct. Cold has nothing to do with it.

Fresh lithiums can provide a voltage of up to 1.8V (see http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf discharge graphs on page 2), which is too much for older 60CSx/76CSx so they shutdown to protect themselves. (The high initial voltage can damage other devices, too.) Newer 60CSx (and presumably 76CSx) have fixed this problem by allowing a higher battery voltage. See http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38355 for more detail.

Look at the graphs in the battery ref--you only need to run them down a percent or so (typ a few minutes) to remove the initial voltage spike.

I use a 60csx and have been quite happy with it. I only use it to track milage in elevation and for the ocasional bushwhack. I dont have any of the software that it came with so I cant do anything with the data The guy I bought it from used never gave it to me)

MapSource (the software) comes with Garmin map products on CD or DVD (not always with the GPS). However, you can get a legal free copy by following the procedure in http://freegeographytools.com/2007/garmin-mapsource-for-free or http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/tutorials/how-to-install-mapsource-if-it-didnt-come-with-your-gps/. (It only includes a world basemap--you can get free Garmin-compatible maps from http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/)

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

[highjack on]

Interesting. I've been using various versions of MapSource for 8-10 years, and don't recall it ever crashing. I run it in XP.

[/highjack off]

Me too. And it crashes each and every time if I make a single change to what has been downloaded from the GPS. If I save it as a gpx file right off the device, then it sometimes works (and sometimes doesn't.)

It could be something else installed on my laptop that causes the issue, but if you're going to bother to have your software catch crashes and send dumps, you could at least report back to the submitter... I'll have to check for updates - I haven't looked in 3-4 months.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

The unit seems to track very well. It locked up exactly once and had to be power-cycled. Sometimes I get a parallel track on the descent to the one on the ascent, off by some 50' or so, which I attribute to the margin of accuracy.

Correct. The satellite constellation and and ionosphere change with time which makes the error change with time. It is also quite likely that you are carrying the GPS in a way that reduces its accuracy somewhat.

I have been quite pleased with the free maps and WMNF tracks found elsewhere on this forum.

I think the Garmin topo maps are a bit better, but some of the free maps aren't bad. The official WMNF trail tracks were probably created with a professional-grade GPS and are likely more accurate than our consumer GPSes.

I am somewhat disappointed by what I consider arbitrary restrictions, like 500 points times 20 tracks = 10000 points. I have that 1Gb micro SD card for the maps and it's not very full so there seems to be no reason for this limit. Especially when I put the device in USB mode and I can see way more than 20 previous active logs as files (all yyyymmddx.gpx). I can even copy them off the device even though they have been 'deleted' by the 'erase all' option.

You are confusing the types of recorded tracks. The active track logs and saved tracks are recorded in internal nonvolatile memory, not on the SD card. The per-day tracks are stored on the SD card, limited only by the amount of free space on the card. (Thus you can still record tracks if if you do not have an SD card in the device.)

MapSource crashes a lot. Mainly when I try and save a downloaded track and waypoint set as a GPX file. It works fine as a gdb file (binary Garmin format). It does not compute net elevation gain or loss (or if it does, I haven't found the mechanism.) I've sent the crash logs, and e-mailed support and gotten zero response.

I haven't had any problems with MapSource reliability. (I'm using v6.13.7, an old version.) The latest is available from http://www8.garmin.com/support/mappingsw.jsp (with change histories) and there is an archive with many versions at http://www.gawisp.com/perry/agree.html.

MapSource (at least as of v6.13.7) can make elevation plots, but does not analyze them for you. I load my (GPX format) track file into NG TOPO! to get the track analyses.

If I send a track to the GPS from MapSource, it truncates it with a beep at 500 points. How hard would it be for the software to say "Hey, your track is bigger than 500 points..." and show the filter dialog? This is currently a manual step.

GPSBabel can also shrink a track to 500 points ("gpsbabel -x simplify,count=500"). It can do this file-to-file or in the process of loading the track into a GPS.

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Tim -

Garmin's support has been historically poor. I contacted them a few months ago re: a problem I had with a new 1490 spontaneously rebooting. Eventually it was resolved by reloading the operating system, but when they don't respond to emails - even for items under warranty - perhaps only once every 6-8 days, it gets discouraging that a solution will be found.

The 1490 was purchased on Amazon, but they only warranty Garmin items for the first 30 days, forcing you to deal with Garmin if the problems occur after that period.

They have a good product, and charge premium prices. But, their attitude re: customer support borders on arrogance.

Kevin

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Correct. The satellite constellation and and ionosphere change with time which makes the error change with time. It is also quite likely that you are carrying the GPS in a way that reduces its accuracy somewhat.

I carry it vertically oriented high on the shoulder strap in the non-metallic Garmin-supplied carrying case. I don't relocate it for the descent. I've noticed this on at least two out-and-back tracks.

You are confusing the types of recorded tracks. The active track logs and saved tracks are recorded in internal nonvolatile memory, not on the SD card. The per-day tracks are stored on the SD card, limited only by the amount of free space on the card. (Thus you can still record tracks if if you do not have an SD card in the device.)

That's exactly my point - it's half-assed of them to not use the SD card if available. These tracks appear to be invisible to the GPS. Maybe I've missed something.

I know there are other ways to get what I'm looking for but honestly I want to do it all with MapSource. My customers constantly ask for features in my product which are widely available in free products, or with the operating system. One-stop shopping is a big selling point, or a souring point, depending on your view.

I paid for the Garmin - this isn't free/open source software where I'm used to having to use several tools to get a job done.

Tim