waiver forms for organized hikes

[bill bowden]

I've been told that signed waiver forms are requited for anyone who participates in AMC Chapter hikes after October 2. Looking at this and the AMC web site I see no announcement of this policy or discussion of it. Am I the only person who is concerned and thinks this is a thoroughly bad policy?

Bill

 

[David Metsky]

It's been up to the discretion of the committees up until now, but as of Oct 1 it is mandatory for the chapter led hikes. It's simply an insurance/liability issue. Good or bad idea, it is simply the reality of leading organized trips in the current culture. I've used them for the last two years and never had anyone not sign. I would have no problems kicking someone off the trip if they wouldn't sign.

We just got the notice today that it is now mandatory.

Here's the form (pdf) for those interested.

-dave-

 

[Mohamed Ellozy]

Bill,

This has been discussed at great length for over a year by the Boston Chapter, which decided to leave it to the discretion of each activity Committee. Recently the Outdoor Leadership Development Committee (consisting mainly of volunteers) has made the waivers mandatory.

Am I the only person who is concerned and thinks this is a thoroughly bad policy?

I, for one, will probably stop leading trips.

 

[tonycc]

I am surprised anyone would lead a trip without waiver, and emergency contact information. What would you do if someone in your care became incapacitated? It would be very dangerous to treat someone without a personal history, or the ability to get one. They look like a good idea for all concerned.

In this day and age personal liability insurance for group leaders is not a bad idea either.

Tony

 

[cragger]

I am on the Executive Committee for the New York - North Jersey Chapter of the AMC. There really was no choice. The previous insurance company for the club decided to stop covering outdoor activities. There are few insurance companies left that will insure a group like the AMC. The waivers are required for insurance reasons - it would not be possible to have insurance without them. No insurance = no club.

 

[kamoore63]

Waiver forms

I've used the waiver form on a voluntary basis on my trips for a year or two. It takes all of a couple of minutes for everyone to sign the form and no one has ever had a problem with it. It's too bad we live in such a litigious society and have to use them at all but it's really no problem to do it. And it does ensure that you have a good emergency contact if you either haven't collected that information or someone has forgotten to provide it.

 

[Ann]

Signing a waiver does not always stop litigation and I believe MIGHT even work against a trip leader by potentially making them the responsible party. Just a thought here.

 

[twigeater]

Does any other state besides Maine require a guide's license? (necessary if you charge fees for leading)

I've never been on an AMC hike, but I assume the participant's pay someone? Or is it all free, and the leaders don't get compensated? just curious.

 

[Tramper Al]

I've never been on an AMC hike, but I assume the participant's pay someone? Or is it all free, and the leaders don't get compensated? just curious.

All free to members and nonmembers alike. And the leaders are not compensated.

 

[explorer13421]

There is an old rule in the law of torts (civil wrongs such as negligence, trespass, and so on) known as the assumption of the risk. It basically meant that if one did something that was risked harm, then one assumed the risk of something harmful happening. Each person was assumed to have the ability to understand what the risks were and to weigh the risks of loss against the risks of gain. This rule has eroded substantially in the last couple of decades. One of the reasons the erosion has occurred is the fact that many educated, experienced and/or employed persons do not want to serve on juries. The result is that many people who are available to serve on juries are uneducated, unexperienced or unemployed, and otherwise have no common sense. The lawyer for the plaintiff and the lawyer for the defendant each get to present what they think are the relevant facts and then argue their respective cases, but when the jury goes into the jury room all bets are off. We need more people on juries who will bring to and use common sense in the jury room. Please remember this when you get your summons for jury duty. Thanks. Explorer 13421 with over 27 years experience as an attorney.

 

[David Metsky]

Signing a waiver does not always stop litigation and I believe MIGHT even work against a trip leader by potentially making them the responsible party. Just a thought here.

Without insurance, all trips would stop.

-dave-

 

[Peakbagr]

A very interesting thread. I'm not sure about NH, VT or MA, but exculpatory releases ARE effective in NYS with the exception of minors where there is absolute liability. Waivers are also ineffective where there is true negligence involved.

There is some real debate as to the fate of club trips if liability protection for leaders ceased. Bear in mind that not too long ago, trip leaders were often not covered for liabilty in some outing clubs. Lets pose this scenario. If someone gets injured while on a trip you're leading and you didn't do anything seriously wrong what would happen? More than likely the injured party would have difficulty locating a lawyer to sue if there were no club insurance policy covering trip leaders. Backing you up would be your homeowners or renter's insurance. Your own insurance would provide coverage.

 

[Mad Townie]

Peakbagr, the AMC waiver is stronger than what you say about ineffectiveness in the face of "true" negligence:

I agree to release and not to sue AMC . . . including claims caused or alleged to be caused by the negligence of AMC (but not its gross negligence or intentional or reckless misconduct . . . I understand I agree here to waive all claims I may have against AMC, and agree that neither I, nor anyone acting on my behalf, will make a claim or file a lawsuit against AMC.

I used to tell my clients that anyone can sue anyone for anything, but the crunch comes when you have to PROVE your claim. Explorer13421 (who apparently was admitted to the bar the same year I was) is right about juries, too.

Now I mediate, so I don't have to tell people those things!

 

[MichaelJ]

I'm not a lawyer, but I've gone whitewater rafting many times with one, who always laughs at the release forms, saying "unenforceable," "can't do that," etc.

I do believe you cannot indemnify yourself against negligence whether gross (excluded above) or regular (which they try to include).

Do they have the magic statement in there: "If any part of this document is held invalid the rest of the clauses remain valid"? I always get a kick out of the fact that has to be explicitly mentioned.

 

[amstony]

I first had to sign one while participating in a Boston AMC Mt. Washington hike in July. Everyone signed it but there were some negative comments from members. So some TL's are already using the form. I hate this form of "CYA", but when people are suing each other, corporations, governments and volunteer groups over all kinds of real and perceived transgressions it is probably unavoidable, and unfortunate.

It will be interesting to see how this affects the number of trips and the number of volunteers to lead trips.

Also, what do you do with the hiker who will refuse, and then go on the trip anyway, even when you tell him not to? You know someone will do it just to "tweak" the system. Is the TL still responsible for this person, if their is an injury or problem?

 

[Peakbagr]

If signing the waiver is a club or chapter requirement, you tell the reluctant person that the release is mandatory. If they refuse, you thank them for their interest and wish then good luck on whatever other hike they are going to be doing that day.

 

[Puma concolor]

Well thanks for wishing me luck on my hike. But I'll be walking along about 10 feet behind the group, setting my own pace on these public lands of course.

 

[Peakbagr]

Tramper:

ADK and I think, AMC leaders receive no compensation.
This is actually a good thing. If your outing club insurance does not respond as a safety net in the event of something happening on a trip you're leading, your homeowners insurance would respond. The one exception is an exclusion on most homeowners policies, excluding coverage for "business pursuits". As strictly a volunteer, leading a trip for the good of the community, you'd have the same protection as if you were helping a neighbor and happened to damage his property, or harmed someone. So long as it was accidental, legal and done without charge, you'll have homeowners insurance. That's why I've always advised trip leaders to carry high liability insurance on their homeowners or renters policies.

 

[Grumpy]

?i]Originally posted by Mark S [/i]
Well thanks for wishing me luck on my hike. But I'll be walking along about 10 feet behind the group, setting my own pace on these public lands of course. [/QUOTE]

I know the quoted remark probably is in jest, but maybe keeping your distance by 100 yards or even a quarter mile would be better. That way you don't quite so directly challenge and undermine the trip leader's position of responsibility and authority, and, prospectively, cause further problems or complications for him. Just a matter of common courtesy.

The proper place and time to challenge rules like those involving waivers is not at the trailhead as a group is forming up for its hike, but in meetings with the organization's highest level leadership.

G.

 

[twigeater]

I agree with Grumpy - don't give the trip leader grief, bring your gripe to the top instead.

I'd like an opinion from trip leaders...

I'm not a trip leader, but I've been organizing/hosting hikes in Maine for another board for 3-4 years. I put participant limits on the trips, links to rules/maps for the area and a link to the LNT site.

A while ago, a poster from that other board asked what I would do if someone showed up on a hike - someone who previously hadn't signed up or paid the reservation fee (most of these trips are in Baxter - but not all - since that's where people seem to want to go) I said since we were all "adults" I hoped that wouldn't happen (it hasn't yet) and I have a good idea of what would go on if an unwelcome guest showed up...

but what do you think?