Clearing blowdown

[MichaelJ]

I want to just throw in that I agree with Post'r Boy *and* Pete Hickey.

It's sad Pete has had to bear witness to the disrespect of creating new trails inappropriately.

However, existing, official trails are, in fact, trails. They are maintained; they are cleared. And I know that the only thing I hate more than having to circumnavigate an uncleared blowdown is seeing from the condition of the woods that it's been happening for months or longer and the way around is carving a new path. That's poor forest management.

I have no problem with doing little bits of maintenance; I've pulled significantly-sized falls off the trail. Cutting the branches off a blowdown will save many a hiker's clothing and buttocks. Should we be out there lopping every tree in site? Deciding for ourselves what the corridor should be? No. But the fact is, it's a trail, it's going to have people passing on it, and blowdowns left in place end up creating far worse problems for hikers and for the forest.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

I've left the impression with some, that I've been advocating that nothing be done. That is not true. All I'm saying, is that if you are planning on something big. If you collect a bunch of people to work on a trail... if you head in with a lot of tools, with the sole idea of opening up a trail in poor condition... Well let someone know

Tim: When you spent those few hours clearing the trail on the way to Isolation, did you let someone know? If I were the trail maintainer, and had a report of bad blowdown in an area, planned a trip to get it, and found the work was done, I would be somewhat annoyed that my time had been wasted when it could have been done doing something more productive.

Not everyone reads this forum.

 

[forestgnome]

Pete makes a good point here; it's a good idea to report to the AMC or relevent trail organization if you clear a trail because they might be about to send out a crew, however unlikely that may be at this time of year. They could also take note for next spring.

After I clear Brunell Trail, I'll phone in an anonymous tip from a pay-phone to the AMC.

Happy Trails!

 

[Pete_Hickey]

however unlikely that may be at this time of year.

When conditions are VERY bad, there are sometimes exceptions to the rule. I know when Floyd hit in the Adirondacks, we had some special off-season trips. In the case of an individual trail adoptor, they may or may not go out. I know I' have made late Nov trips on my path, after reports of a storm leaving a lot of blowdown.

 

[Tim Seaver]

Who ya gonna call? BRUSHBUSTERS!

Tim: When you spent those few hours clearing the trail on the way to Isolation, did you let someone know? If I were the trail maintainer, and had a report of bad blowdown in an area, planned a trip to get it, and found the work was done, I would be somewhat annoyed that my time had been wasted when it could have been done doing something more productive.

If a trail worker or crew were to show up on Isolation the day after we went through, I doubt that they would be disappointed if they wanted to unleash a can of whoop-ass on the many trail obstacles - we made sure to leave lots of stuff the 10"-14" range so we wouldn't ruin their day. Bring a BIG saw!


On a more serious note, perhaps it would be useful to post the numbers and or websites (on this thread) relevant to reporting such unplanned trail cleaning endeavors for the different areas of the WMNF - Not being a trail work "insider", I for one wouldn't have a clue as who to call.

 

[Chip]

"arm" did a great job of just that in a previous thread.

 

[Tim Seaver]

I was thinking of something a little more specific, as in:

If you do trail work in +AREA X+, call 1-234-567-8923, and ask for Dick Danger the Super Ranger... if you are in +AREA Z+, call the Lizzie Borden Memorial Trail Crew at 1-234-AXEWORK....

Or do we just call the front desk at the AMC and hope for the best?

 

[Paul]

36 CFR 261.10(a)

Before attempting any trail maintenance activity without an authorized operator in the National Forest, I would take a moment to familiarize yourself with the Federal regulations governing the National Forest System, particularly Title 36 Section 261.10 (a) of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) regarding Occupancy and Use of the National Forest System:

OCCUPANCY AND USE

36 CFR The following are prohibited:

261.10 (a) - Constructing, placing, or maintaining any kind of road, trail, structure, fence, enclosure, communication equipment, or other improvement on National Forest system land or facilities without special use authorization, contract, or approved operating plan.

This manifests itself in the following posting taken from a USFS sign:

AS SUCH, ANY MAINTENANCE ACTIVITIES – INCLUDING BLAZING, BRUSHING, AND BLOWDOWN REMOVAL ARE PROHIBITED.

BUILDING AND/OR MAINTAINING A TRAIL WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION IS A VIOLATION OF 36 CFR 261.10a, PUNISHABLE BY A MAXIMUM FINE OF $5,000.00 AND/OR 6 MONTHS IMPRISONMENT.

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

Before attempting any trail maintenance activity without an authorized operator in the National Forest, I would take a moment to familiarize yourself with the Federal regulations governing the National Forest System, particularly Title 36 Section 261.10 (a) of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) regarding Occupancy and Use of the National Forest System:

OCCUPANCY AND USE

36 CFR The following are prohibited:

261.10 (a) - Constructing, placing, or maintaining any kind of road, trail, structure, fence, enclosure, communication equipment, or other improvement on National Forest system land or facilities without special use authorization, contract, or approved operating plan.

This manifests itself in the following posting taken from a USFS sign:

AS SUCH, ANY MAINTENANCE ACTIVITIES – INCLUDING BLAZING, BRUSHING, AND BLOWDOWN REMOVAL ARE PROHIBITED.

BUILDING AND/OR MAINTAINING A TRAIL WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION IS A VIOLATION OF 36 CFR 261.10a, PUNISHABLE BY A MAXIMUM FINE OF $5,000.00 AND/OR 6 MONTHS IMPRISONMENT.

I didn't see that post...




...I still don't see it.

 

[Tim Seaver]

36 CFR 261.10a!

Oh NO! Not 36 CFR 261.10a!

Anyone know any good songs to break rocks by?

That would seem to put the kibosh on anyone having much interest in reporting such nefarious and unprofessional brush removal in hopes of preventing future Law Abiding All American Professional Trail Crews from making an undue field trip and getting their tootsies wet for naught.

Not that it will stop people from clearing the trail. I have a very hard time imagining that many people know about such an obscure law, or picturing a ranger/warden/what-have-you that would possibly see prosecuting somebody for clearing the trail as a good career move.

Then again, maybe Ranger Dick is tired of patrolling the lots for hikers napping in their cars and is ready to move on to something more challenging

 

[John H Swanson]

It's one thing to break a law and another to be caught and still another to be arrested. Imagine if all law violators were procecuted. Starting with speeding (in cars not on trails)

I think there are two types of people in the world ...

Those that clean as they go and the others that make a mess andclean it up later, if ever.

I prefer to look at hiking and trail maintenance as a 'clean as you go' event. So most of my maintenance consists of removing small downed wood, moving dead blowdowns picking up little (broken glass is myfavorite) and clipping. I often clip or flick small 1-5 ft sticks off the trail while hiking at my normal pace.

I've started doing this out of frustration. On many occasions, I've seen an entire AMC hike walk over or around a branch that took 3 second to move. And don't get me started about the lack of clipping or blazing in the WMNF. I don't think I should have to walk a trail getting slapped in the face by branches. After numerous corneal abrasions, I will claim self-defense!

When it comes to hiking we need more people that clean as they go. Then the official trail maintainers can concentrate on serious things like big blowdowns, building water bars, blazing etc.

 

[forestgnome]

AS SUCH, ANY MAINTENANCE ACTIVITIES – INCLUDING BLAZING, BRUSHING, AND BLOWDOWN REMOVAL ARE PROHIBITED.

BUILDING AND/OR MAINTAINING A TRAIL WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION IS A VIOLATION OF 36 CFR 261.10a, PUNISHABLE BY A MAXIMUM FINE OF $5,000.00 AND/OR 6 MONTHS IMPRISONMENT.

DougPaul, very informative post.

Often, laws are written with enforcability in mind. Including blowdown removal from an official trail was likely a result of input from rangers trying to stem unofficial trails. Another guess is liability, in an age when a person falls down, then sues the landowner; blowdown removal can be dangerous.

I seriously doubt anyone has ever been charged for removing obstuctions on an official trail. In WMNF, every kioske has a sign explaining hiker ethics, such as LNT, etc. It shows a drawing of a hiker moving a stone out of the trailbed, and says something like "Make minor trail repairs and report major problems to the Forest Service."

I'm going to ask FS about this issue.

 

[Mark]

36 CFR 261.10a!

<cue music: Alice's Restaurant>

So I sittin' there on the Group W bench with the other mean and nasty and ugly and horrible crime-type guys. And the meanest, ugliest, nastiest one of them all, was coming over to me and he was mean 'n' ugly 'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things and he sat down next to me and said, "Kid, whad'ya get?" I said, "I didn't get nothing, I had to pay $50 and put back the blow down." He said, "What were you arrested for, kid?" And I said, "Trail Maintenance."

And they all moved away from me on the Group W bench.

 

[MadRiver]

<cue music: Alice's Restaurant>

So I sittin' there on the Group W bench with the other mean and nasty and ugly and horrible crime-type guys. And the meanest, ugliest, nastiest one of them all, was coming over to me and he was mean 'n' ugly 'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things and he sat down next to me and said, "Kid, whad'ya get?" I said, "I didn't get nothing, I had to pay $50 and put back the blow down." He said, "What were you arrested for, kid?" And I said, "Trail Maintenance."

And they all moved away from me on the Group W bench.

I know I am old when I understand the reference.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

I seriously doubt anyone has ever been charged for removing obstuctions on an official trail.

Usually, the term, "within reason" comes into play. Of course the laws are there to prevent things from getting out of control. Most rangers would never bother someone for clearing some blowdown from an official trail, unles you come in with a big gang and chainsaws blaring.

Problems come, however on both ends. There are some rangers that will get people for every litle enfraction.... we've all met them or heard about them. And they are not limited to
any one particular area.

The other side of the coin, is that if the laws were not there, there would be people doing whatever they wanted to, creating new trails all over the place This happens, in spite of laws, so imagine what it would be like if it were not illegal.

'Within reason'

Unfortunately, at the fringe, reason has a different definition.

Oh yeah... A lot of blowdown near the trailhead. Can you haul it away in your truck for your fireplace?

 

[Cath]

MARK ~ I'd send you a ton of Green Squares............if only I could !

Yup, Swanson, Seaver, Mark, Drew & I are sittin over here on the Group W Bench.
"I'm mean, we're sittin over here on the Group W Bench", and we think we see Ed headin our way

What are ya gonna do officer Obie.......arrest us? Instead of bringing those trees over here in the trail, we put this wood from the trail in the woods.

 

[Double Bow]

I know I am old when I understand the reference.

Awww... Ya don't need to be old to understand the reference, you just need to be "in the know". And, of course, "Folks in the know drink Black Crow"!

 

[spencer]

excuse me briefly,

I just saw Arlo on his Alice's Restaurant Reunion tour a couple of weeks ago (right before T-day).

It was my first time seeing him live and boy was it a treat!

okay, back to the topic at hand.

spencer

 

[Neil]

Often, laws are written with enforcability in mind. Including blowdown removal from an official trail was likely a result of input from rangers trying to stem unofficial trails. Another guess is liability, in an age when a person falls down, then sues the landowner; blowdown removal can be dangerous.

Say you're a top model and you happen to see bit of blowdown on the trail. It might mar your skin or cause you to break a heel, right? So you remove it. What if, in the process of removing the offending material, you break a nail? And what if you had a photo shoot for a nail poilish manufacturer the very next day?

What if they got someone else for the shoot and they liked her better than you and gave her the next (and the next) contracts. An entire career could be blown down the tubes right there. The loss of income (not to mention the psychological trauma of a broken nail) could be astronomical. Think of the potential lawsuit against the state or the park.

I never touch on-the-trail blowdown. To me, it literally quivers with all sorts of danger signals. It even throws my gps off.

 

[sierra]

Im what some would call an outlaw. Regulations make me cringe as does most rules in society. When I step into the backcountry my personna in relation to my most liberal views is magnified exponentialy, I will now clear blowdowns as I always have, only difference is I'll be smileling.