Hikers in NH must be prepared -- or pay for rescue
- Thread starter kevinmac
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dr_wu002
Well-known member
The message I'm getting is that you should kill yourself because then your family won't get billed for a rescue. Jerks.
-Dr. Wu
-Dr. Wu
HAMTERO
Active member
no! Not my hiking licence.
Mike P.
Well-known member
Where to begin???? (Rant on)
If I lose my hiking license, can I buy another, maybe on the black market (or since winter is coming is that the white market) Will that be in the parking lot at PNVC or behind Moat Mt. or Woodstock Inn? (for some reason Truant's seems better for that? maybe a mobile one in a van...)
If it was in the Scott Mason thread I missed it, I did not realize he had volunteered to pay $1,000 up front.
Back in 1995, 11 days after sustaining a chip fracture on one of the bones in my left foot, I limped slowly on four hikes in 16 days, Lafayette & Lincoln, a day hike on the AT in CT, the Osceola's & then Abraham & Ellen. (I always liked Judas Priest) Can I billed for reckless hiking if I did not require a rescue? (I paid for it, it never healed right but the foot had been broken a coupel of times before playing , soccer, BB & VB)
Interesting development on the Baldface Rescue case. A jury of 12 peers (12 flatlanders who can't find the nearest Burger King without a GPS) is going to determine if a sign on a bald summit is pointing to the true direction (not general direction) of the trail & for a jury used to road signs that say a road turns left then right, why does the trail sign point in one direction, straight. This I think would work great on Lafayette too, if this a sign pointing in the proper direction for Greenleaf & does it show all the turns. A jury with cairns, is the trail on the left side or the right side? It switches? that's confusing can you imagine looking for speed limit signs on the other side of the highway?
Okay I know better & so do you but a lawyer only needs to confuse a non-hiking jury. That's shouldn't be hard, even better if you can get the case heard in a Federal court. Can NH force a NJ or PA plaintiff to there court? Since ME has a similar rule & you were in the WM NATIONAL Forest why is NH the state trying the case.
The girls got a bill because they did not tell anyone their plans but in the recent Owl's Head SAR & Scott's case, it was people at home that initiated the search the hikers did not really need, can we have some clarification from the state here, how can both be wrong?!?!?! Should I have people at home know where I am in case I am overdue or not!!!!
Free rescues in a National Park? Now there was something I missed in all the old lets have a White Mountain National Forest threads from years gone by.
Prepared for a night out, by who's definition? Do I need a tent for a day hike on Middle Sugarloaf in May? (People at work think I just need a hotel reservation) If I bring an Axe, I'm prepared to cut down trees for a shelter, some lighter fluid (does DEET burn) & a lighter, I'm prepared to build a fire to keep warm. It's lighter than fleece, a tent, a pad, I'll go old school with fir branches to replace the pad.
What,the forest service used to have more shelters but they removed them or did not replace them? how can you have poorly marked trails & then not care of shelters & then be upset when I cut down trees & branches to spend the night, the Wilderness Act is irresponsible & needs to be changed! (how silly but I just need a city lawyer to explain it to a city jury)
Just have to convince a jury I'm too stupid to know that might be irresponsible. (But hey, I left my family at home while I risked my life climbing Mt. Washingtoin in the winter, that's stupid & irresponsible Mr. (or Ms.) Jury Foreman. Drive up in a snowstorm to walk in the woods, hiked with abroken foot or without my cell phone, see, I've been stupid all my life (why don't I have a reality TV show?) I'll skip the part about my wife suggesting the hike when she saw the Life Insurance policy...
(Rant off)
Scarier than the news story was the side bars showing six easy ways to ("shudder") join the evil empire!
(Rant on)If I lose my hiking license, can I buy another, maybe on the black market (or since winter is coming is that the white market) Will that be in the parking lot at PNVC or behind Moat Mt. or Woodstock Inn? (for some reason Truant's seems better for that? maybe a mobile one in a van...)
If it was in the Scott Mason thread I missed it, I did not realize he had volunteered to pay $1,000 up front.
Back in 1995, 11 days after sustaining a chip fracture on one of the bones in my left foot, I limped slowly on four hikes in 16 days, Lafayette & Lincoln, a day hike on the AT in CT, the Osceola's & then Abraham & Ellen. (I always liked Judas Priest) Can I billed for reckless hiking if I did not require a rescue? (I paid for it, it never healed right but the foot had been broken a coupel of times before playing , soccer, BB & VB)
Interesting development on the Baldface Rescue case. A jury of 12 peers (12 flatlanders who can't find the nearest Burger King without a GPS
) is going to determine if a sign on a bald summit is pointing to the true direction (not general direction) of the trail & for a jury used to road signs that say a road turns left then right, why does the trail sign point in one direction, straight. This I think would work great on Lafayette too, if this a sign pointing in the proper direction for Greenleaf & does it show all the turns. A jury with cairns, is the trail on the left side or the right side? It switches? that's confusing can you imagine looking for speed limit signs on the other side of the highway? Okay I know better & so do you but a lawyer only needs to confuse a non-hiking jury. That's shouldn't be hard, even better if you can get the case heard in a Federal court. Can NH force a NJ or PA plaintiff to there court? Since ME has a similar rule & you were in the WM NATIONAL Forest why is NH the state trying the case.
The girls got a bill because they did not tell anyone their plans but in the recent Owl's Head SAR & Scott's case, it was people at home that initiated the search the hikers did not really need, can we have some clarification from the state here, how can both be wrong?!?!?! Should I have people at home know where I am in case I am overdue or not!!!!
Free rescues in a National Park? Now there was something I missed in all the old lets have a White Mountain National Forest threads from years gone by.
Prepared for a night out, by who's definition? Do I need a tent for a day hike on Middle Sugarloaf in May? (People at work think I just need a hotel reservation) If I bring an Axe, I'm prepared to cut down trees for a shelter, some lighter fluid (does DEET burn) & a lighter, I'm prepared to build a fire to keep warm. It's lighter than fleece, a tent, a pad, I'll go old school with fir branches to replace the pad.
What,the forest service used to have more shelters but they removed them or did not replace them? how can you have poorly marked trails & then not care of shelters & then be upset when I cut down trees & branches to spend the night, the Wilderness Act is irresponsible & needs to be changed! (how silly but I just need a city lawyer to explain it to a city jury)
Just have to convince a jury I'm too stupid to know that might be irresponsible. (But hey, I left my family at home while I risked my life climbing Mt. Washingtoin in the winter, that's stupid & irresponsible Mr. (or Ms.) Jury Foreman. Drive up in a snowstorm to walk in the woods, hiked with abroken foot or without my cell phone, see, I've been stupid all my life (why don't I have a reality TV show?
) I'll skip the part about my wife suggesting the hike when she saw the Life Insurance policy...(Rant off)
Scarier than the news story was the side bars showing six easy ways to ("shudder") join the evil empire!
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Stan
Well-known member
wu, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do ... but we'd miss you!
bandana4me
New member
Baffling?
I will never understand how a person can call and ask for a service to be rendered, have the service completed, and then not want to pay for the service.
I will never understand how a person can call and ask for a service to be rendered, have the service completed, and then not want to pay for the service.
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Scarier than the news story was the side bars showing six easy ways to ("shudder") join the evil empire!
"Not if my life depended on it"
Tim
dr_wu002
Well-known member
Yeah, really... what's it now, "Live Free but Kill Yourself if you get lost in the woods?" Didn't anyone ever listen to Ozzy's "Suicide Solution" before?? Government maggots.
-Dr. Wu
WhiteMTHike
Active member
What Woody said.
Stash
Active member
Based upon BIGEarl's post on high winds this weekend and MWO Higher Summit Forecast inclusion of the following...
...I'm going to postpone plans for hiking the Bonds on Saturday.
The question now has to be: Do I get negligence credits for NOT taking the chance?
...I'm going to postpone plans for hiking the Bonds on Saturday.
The question now has to be: Do I get negligence credits for NOT taking the chance?
DrJJFate
New member
How is 16 bills issued for the 275 rescues cited considered "consistently billed"?
TCD
Well-known member
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Most of the entries in this overall discussion continue down the mistaken path of trying to decide who is a "good rescuee" who should be applauded, and who is a "bad rescuee" who should be billed. As I said on the other thread, there will never be agreement on that; it's a flawed thought process, and does not offer a path to a solution. Out of state "experts" who were not involved are shooting their mouths off; even the press is jumping into this with both feet, peppering their text with terms like "Eagle Scout" and "seasoned" to try to guide readers judgment.
Because it will never be possible to get agreement on this, it's a wate of time. And a waste of money! How much is it costing to have experts testify on whether trail markers were good enough? Who's paying for that?
Again, I believe we should stop this nonsense. A fixed percentage of the actual cost of rescue should be billed to EVERY rescuee. If we, as a society, decide that this is an essential service that taxpayers should support, then we set that percentage to zero. If we decide that we should build in some motivation for people to plan better, then we set the percentage to something other than zero.
If people are concerned that they might have to pay when they are rescued because of an accident, even though they "did everything right," they should buy insurance, just like we buy for every other kind of acident that might happen to us.
Why is this so hard?
TCD
Because it will never be possible to get agreement on this, it's a wate of time. And a waste of money! How much is it costing to have experts testify on whether trail markers were good enough? Who's paying for that?
Again, I believe we should stop this nonsense. A fixed percentage of the actual cost of rescue should be billed to EVERY rescuee. If we, as a society, decide that this is an essential service that taxpayers should support, then we set that percentage to zero. If we decide that we should build in some motivation for people to plan better, then we set the percentage to something other than zero.
If people are concerned that they might have to pay when they are rescued because of an accident, even though they "did everything right," they should buy insurance, just like we buy for every other kind of acident that might happen to us.
Why is this so hard?
TCD
andrewb
Member
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- 132
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- 10
I couldn't have said it better. Agree with you 100%
Your house is broken into. You call the police. They come, and render a service. Do you expect to pay?
Your house catches on fire. You call the fire dept. They come, and render a service. Do you expect to pay?
A school bus comes every morning, takes your kids to public school where your kids are educated by teachers, and put back on the bus to come home in the afternoon. Do you expect to pay?
Of course none of the above are free - they are paid for by taxes, as could rescues, if that's what the people want.
Tim
Your house catches on fire. You call the fire dept. They come, and render a service. Do you expect to pay?
A school bus comes every morning, takes your kids to public school where your kids are educated by teachers, and put back on the bus to come home in the afternoon. Do you expect to pay?
Of course none of the above are free - they are paid for by taxes, as could rescues, if that's what the people want.
Tim
DrJJFate
New member
I like your illustrations, but you cite examples in which the person who is making the requests is the [local] taxpayer and hence, has already paid for those municipal services.
How about this: Your car breaks down 100 miles from your house. Do you expect to pay for assistance?
[If you are a member of AAA or some alternative, you have purchased insurance against such an event.]
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A good point. My point was to illustrate why some people might not expect to pay. As a resident of NH, I could perhaps be expected to receive state services, including rescues, in return for my paying state property taxes, or buying alcohol or lottery tickets or paying capital gains taxes. The state police will come if I need them. Most states have reciprocal agreements which would cover out-of-staters.
Tim
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Stan
Well-known member
I have long had a dilemma about charging for rescues.
On one hand, I view it as a humanitarian service to brothers and sisters in distress. This view stems from my involvement in SAR while in the Coast Guard, where the saying was, "You have to go out but you don't have to come back", and there was, and is, no shortage of good people willing to put themselves at risk for others. This view also stems from my spiritual side that feels that there is no higher calling in life than to love and serve one another.
The other side is more pragmatic, especially in light of the negligence and "yuppie 911" mentality that is all too common. So many people are careless out of a sense of entitlement as if they were the center of the universe. Make 'em pay, I say.
Also on the more pragmatic side is the fact that a charge for a rescue could result in a fear of a large bill, thus causing a delay in the call for help which could end up costing more for a search, or a rescue, or a recovery, than addressing the situation right away.
Those who simplify the issue to slogans driven by the delusion that, "it can't happen to me", add little to the debate.
Until I have a wisdom or revelation to navigate this dilemma, I will accept the judgement of those who are trained, experienced and motivated to help others through SAR.
On one hand, I view it as a humanitarian service to brothers and sisters in distress. This view stems from my involvement in SAR while in the Coast Guard, where the saying was, "You have to go out but you don't have to come back", and there was, and is, no shortage of good people willing to put themselves at risk for others. This view also stems from my spiritual side that feels that there is no higher calling in life than to love and serve one another.
The other side is more pragmatic, especially in light of the negligence and "yuppie 911" mentality that is all too common. So many people are careless out of a sense of entitlement as if they were the center of the universe. Make 'em pay, I say.
Also on the more pragmatic side is the fact that a charge for a rescue could result in a fear of a large bill, thus causing a delay in the call for help which could end up costing more for a search, or a rescue, or a recovery, than addressing the situation right away.
Those who simplify the issue to slogans driven by the delusion that, "it can't happen to me", add little to the debate.
Until I have a wisdom or revelation to navigate this dilemma, I will accept the judgement of those who are trained, experienced and motivated to help others through SAR.
