Hillary rips climbers who left dying man

[DougPaul]

<snip> Inglis <snip>

Looks to me like Inglis is being unfairly singled out. Many others walked by--members of his party tried to help. Inglis, as a double amputee, had less margin than others. (Inglis has SAR experience, himself.)

Doug

 

[Tim Horn]

Each person that passed by and continued to summit can try and rationalize their actions. It won't help them sleep in 30 years when they will still know that they neglected their responsibility to try and save a dying man. You can preach situational ethics and posture but we all know that if you can continue to attempt to make the summit you could have done something to help. Each person shares O2 for 5 min. and gets him down another 30 feet. Now if he survives the night he is 1200 feet lower.
I certainly would not want to go back country skiing with some of the posters on this thread. If I got buried they would simply shrug and say hell if we go over there we'll miss the rest of today's freshies. Or maybe I am trapped on a ledge, well trying to save you might entail risking injury or death so no way I 'm going to help. Too bad Tim, we have our own goals to worry about maybe we'll check on you later. That thought process is anti-ethical to what extreme sports are about.
Just because you are involved in high risk endeavor's you are not excused from your responsiblity to your fellow man. It would seem that in extreme situations where all are dependent on each other you would have even higher expectations of yourself to aid a fellow risk taker. Does not matter whether you know them or not. If they are down you have to try and help. Its not a matter for debate just basic human responsibility. Almost time to actually go play on the trails and not the keyboard. Peace All and drive safe.

 

[dr_wu002]

Looks to me like Inglis is being unfairly singled out. Many others walked by--members of his party tried to help. Inglis, as a double amputee, had less margin than others. (Inglis has SAR experience, himself.)

Doug

Inglis is getting criticized because of his media exposure. Had it been an anonymous "expidition" to Everest, nobody would be singled out. Most likely, Inglis behaved like anyone else in his party -- he's just getting singled out because people know who he is and it's easy for the public to recognize a celebrity.

-Dr. Wu

 

[DougPaul]

Inglis is getting criticized because of his media exposure. Had it been an anonymous "expidition" to Everest, nobody would be singled out. Most likely, Inglis behaved like anyone else in his party -- he's just getting singled out because people know who he is and it's easy for the public to recognize a celebrity.

Agreed.

He also stated publicly that he recognized Sharp's condition and kept going rather than slinking by in the [media] shadows. And, given the builit-up frustration of some of the more traditionally-minded mountaineers, he became the lightning rod.

Doug

 

[jade]

A recent new report states that Lincoln Hall, 50, who had been reported dead was actually found alive. He was given oxygen and tea and is being assisted by rescue people......stay tuned....

...Jade

 

[David Metsky]

http://www.everestnews.com/everest2006/everestsleeping052620066.htm

A team of 12 or 13 Sherpas got him down to the North Col after he revived and managed to walk a big chunk of the way down himself. It's an amazing turn of events, and although it's still a long way from being complete, the story is amazing and awe inspiring.

-dave-

 

[Kevin Rooney]

http://www.everestnews.com/everest2006/everestsleeping052620066.htm

A team of 12 or 13 Sherpas got him down to the North Col after he revived and managed to walk a big chunk of the way down himself. It's an amazing turn of events, and although it's still a long way from being complete, the story is amazing and awe inspiring.

-dave-

I read that earlier, Dave, and I agree - it's amazing.

Am wondering why it's only Sherpas doing the rescuing, though - no Caucausians - is that significant or only a coincidence?

 

[jbrown]

Kevin, it's probably significant in that the Sherpas are in general (not to put a stereotype on anyone...) stronger at altitude than the people from outside.

In regard to Anatoli Boukreev and Scott Fischer, Lene Gammelgaard who survived the '96 tragedy said ,"Scott Fischer and Anatoli Boukreev were complex and unique human beings. The tragedy is that now they are gone. I was devastated on Anatoli's behalf by all the criticisms that he got. I couldn't really understand it. Anatoli, to me, was a pure mountaineer. He was extremely strong and he knew what the mountains were all about. Anatoli respected the mountains tremendously."

Here's more detail from Lene.

After reading Anatoli's book and then Lene's version of the events, I lost a little respect for John Krakauer and take anything written by him with a grain of salt. Recollection of events are always tempered by the severity of the events themselves, but Krakauer seemed to unfairly single out Boukreev in pointing a finger of blame.

There, now I said something.

Happy trails, everyone.

 

[sleeping bear]

Most people will help those in need, period. Regardless of whether or not they have the training/skills/knowledge whatever, they will try. However, if you take a first aid or wilderness first aid class, they teach that when you find a someone injured one of the first things you need to do is determine if the "scene is safe". If there is a risk to you, you have to determine whether or not to proceed.

The same is true in many other aspects of first aid and rescue. One victim is better than two. Now, this really depends on the situation, but I will probably not put my own life in jeopardy for someone else's, especially someone I don't know or have never met. Maybe that's selfish or unreasonable, but I like being alive. If there is no threat to my life, heck yeah I'm gonna help you.

Search and rescue personell do the same thing. Look at Mt. Washington. Many many rescues have been delayed to wait out better weather. People have died up there because the rescuers didn't feel it was safe to go up. Think about the Madison rescue thread- if the weather had been god-awful and the SAR team couldn't go out that night and those kids died- would we be calling the rescuers "murderers"?

As far as I can tell, at high altitude, just being up there, let alone rescueing someone, is a serious risk to your life.

 

[Gris]

Am wondering why it's only Sherpas doing the rescuing, though - no Caucausians - is that significant or only a coincidence?

Kevin, are you being rhetorical? The answer is obvious. Re-read my other/prev post.

 

[expat]

if you take a first aid or wilderness first aid class, they teach that when you find a someone injured one of the first things you need to do is determine if the "scene is safe". If there is a risk to you, you have to determine whether or not to proceed.

That's true when the rescuers are in a safe place, relatively. But to continue to summit, putting yourelf in a possibly more dangerous situation than providing some assistance in descending, isn't a case of "staying safe" as opposed to providing a rescue attempt.

 

[David Metsky]

Am wondering why it's only Sherpas doing the rescuing, though - no Caucausians - is that significant or only a coincidence?

Sherpas are physiologically better suited to operating at altitude. It's not stereotyping, they really have much better adapted cardio-vascular systems than Westerners. In general, they can go higher, faster, and further than most others.

There are some westerners who won the genetic lottery, like Anatoli Boukerev, who could operate up there when others can't. I think Messner was another one of those.

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/81/3/1355
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/95/4/1915

-dave-

 

[Maddy]

[QUOTE=jbrownit's probably significant in that the Sherpas are in general (not to put a stereotype on anyone...) stronger at altitude than the people from outside.

I was thinking the same thing. Those sherpas are so strong and acclimated to "mountain air". If anyone could do the job they could.
I also think that "Sleeping Bear" does an excellent job of describing rescue protocol in her last post. I really believe that in most cases it's not that people do not want to help but rather that they just don't have the reserve to do it. There are just so many things that factor in at altiude, not the least of which is hypoxia.
Happy to hear he got off the mountain. He is one very lucky dude!

 

[spaddock]

I really believe that in most cases it's not that people do not want to help but rather that they just don't have the reserve to do it. There are just so many things that factor in at altiude, not the least of which is hypoxia.

It's one thing if he was just beyond saving.

But I just don't understand comments like, "they just don't have the reserve" when they continued to go up?


-Shayne

 

[David Metsky]

Happy to hear he got off the mountain. He is one very lucky dude!

He's not off the mountain by a long shot. He's in a semi-warm tent being tended to by doctors at 7000 meters, dealing with the affects of HAPE, HACE, and severe frostbite.

As I mentioned in the earlier post, it's not just acclimitization from living up at altitude. Sherpas have different genetic makeups that allow them deal with ultra-high altitude better than the rest of us. There's no amount of acclimitization that you our I could do that would allow us to opperate like that. Except for a few freaks of nature (Boukerev, Messner, Acker, Vesteurs) the rest of us would be in a world of hurt.

And Sherpas die up there with unfortunate frequency. It really doesn't get reported as much as when a westerner dies. They just have better odds.

-dave-

 

[David Metsky]

But I just don't understand comments like, "they just don't have the reserve" when they continued to go up?

You can either go up or go down, you can't sit still. A rescue of an unconcious person is much more difficult than continuing to climb to the summit. At some point I think the harsh reality is that these people have trained and suffered to get there, so did Sharp (who was on his third Everest attempt). What purpose would turning around serve? If that was the case, why would they go there in the first place. It's a mindset I don't care to chose, but everyone up there (including the people who died) chose it willingly and without reservation.

-dave-

 

[chipc]

new article on Sharp

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060526/ap_on_re_as/alone_on_everest_lh1

 

[Kevin Rooney]

To jbrown, Gris, Dave M and others - my comment about the Sherpas and Caucasians was somewhat tougue-in-cheek, and I'm aware of the physiological advantage the mountain people have over westerners. Still ... on the surface, it raises some eyebrows (OK, at least 2 - mine) of why the expedition leaders and teammates didn't hustle back up the mountain to rescue their client and fellow climber ("OK, all you white guys can hang out in the tent in your sleeping bags, warm up, drink tea, take a hit of O2. All you Sherpas - gear up! The day's still young!").

And yes, I've read many of the books which detail the risks/decisions which have to be made with extreme high altitude climbing. And I also know (and anyone who's ever hiked/climbed with me knows) that it would impossible for me to leave anyone behind. My family knows that, too.

 

[Gris]

My point is/was - the sherpas are there because it is where they live and what they do for a living. The others are there because they are by and large self-centered egotists wanting their shot at summiting. Don't expect heroics from that croo. I am with you all the way Kev. There would be no sense of accomplishment or joy for me in summiting knowing that anyone for any reason died on the mountain while I was up there. Of course, I would never attempt it even if in good enough shape physcially. I am with B. Wethers, tis madness pure & simple.

 

[spaddock]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060526/ap_on_re_as/alone_on_everest_lh1

That was a great article!

I too could never take pride in standing on top of a piece of dirt and rock if somebody else died while I was there and I did nothing.

This pretty much sums it up for me:

The top mountaineers "often help each other," said Sjogren, who has made many Himalayan climbs. "If you know him or you don't know him, it doesn't matter: you try to help him until he's confirmed dead."

And who am I to argue with Sir Edmund Hillary!


-Shayne