The 'list' dilemma

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carole

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In reading certain threads recently I have, as stated elsewhere, come to the conclusion that I am no longer working on lists. This was a culmination of several thoughts going through my head.

One was a chance reading of a review of a new book out by David Roberts. I have never read any of his books but thought the review interesting: “he comes to see the selfishness of his own obsession, of risking everything not for a cause but for a kick. Without climbing, would he have been a better husband, a better son? It takes another kind of courage just to ask the question.”

Now I’m not saying that pursuing ‘lists’ are risking everything but are they not more for a kick than a cause? Does the pursuit of lists take you away from other things that are in reality more important?

Then I read the ‘who’s who’ of peakbagging and I question why are people elevated for doing more peaks, first list finishers, faster ascents, etc? I do find it interesting to see what people can accomplish but find that there are other people much more worthy of my admiration.

I also read the excellent discussion of what hurts or heals the forests we love. Should we follow others to these peaks? Should we share where we go? Will others follow us? Will we destroy what we are going for, for ourselves or for those after us? Should we just not go? Do we need to go or do we just want to go? I have decided there are places I want to go, maybe I will, but maybe I won’t. I don’t need to go everywhere. I do feel I need to hike as it is a source of solace to me but I don’t need to follow a list anymore to find that solace.

So where am I going with this? A suggestion if I may…trailwork. It is often mentioned that there are not enough trailworkers yet the trails need maintenance and perhaps more areas need trails rather than multiple herd paths. Could more time be spent on trail work in proportion to the time hiking?

I have found it to be immensely satisfying to see an area almost trampled to death coming back to life by a little bit of trailwork. And just this week with all the rain we’ve had, I was quite pleased with myself to walk up a trail that was basically a river and ponds, find the source of the problem, make some drainage, clean out and redirect the flow of a stream spilling its banks due to fallen and washed up debris and return down a trail that now didn’t even have a trickle. I come home dirty, tired and just as happy as I would if I had hiked to a summit.

So now if I am working on a list it is only a ‘to do’ list of trailwork interspersed with hiking.
 
carole said:
Does the pursuit of lists take you away from other things that are in reality more important?
Yes.

Thanks for an intelligent and well written post; a rarity.

Steve
 
As a "list" guy, I can assure everyone, I have never sought to be "elevated" over anyone, nor have I ever sought anyone's "admiration". I've been working on the NE 3's for a long time, 20 years +, for one reason only, I enjoy the chance to visit some really remote locations. During this time frame I have also been a trail adopter for the AMC and a trip leader for the AMC. I think you'll find that most list folks do the same type of activities., at least the ones I hike with have. Everyone should just 'hike their own hike".
 
carole said:
So where am I going with this? A suggestion if I may…trailwork.
.....So now if I am working on a list it is only a ‘to do’ list of trailwork interspersed with hiking.

AWWWWRIGHT! We need more people like you.

Well, I see that you aren't in my neighborhood, but we (46ers) offer 'conservation award' patches, for doing trailwork. One after you've done 46 hours, one after 146 hours, and one after 346 hours. We have a (small) number of people working on those patches.

Interesting that you bring this up today. Cruddy Toes and I were just lamenting about how we have few new people coming out to work. I mentioned, that sometimes, I am the youngest (at 51) on our trail crew. It doesn't seem that 'new people' seem to want to come out much.
 
dms said:
As a "list" guy, I can assure everyone, I have never sought to be "elevated" over anyone, nor have I ever sought anyone's "admiration". I've been working on the NE 3's for a long time, 20 years +, for one reason only, I enjoy the chance to visit some really remote locations. During this time frame I have also been a trail adopter for the AMC and a trip leader for the AMC. I think you'll find that most list folks do the same type of activities., at least the ones I hike with have. Everyone should just 'hike their own hike".

I want to clarify that I was not suggesting that you or any others sought to be elevated or admired but expressions by others made me question the attention. I do admire those who put many hours into the trails and do much for others by being a trip leader.
 
carole said:
=Does the pursuit of lists take you away from other things that are in reality more important?

I have decided there are places I want to go, maybe I will, but maybe I won’t. I don’t need to go everywhere. I do feel I need to hike as it is a source of solace to me but I don’t need to follow a list anymore to find that solace.

First, setting aside time to meet your own needs and maintaining your health is important, whether that be hiking, bicycling, a day at the beach, whatever. No one else can do that for you, and learning to balance your own needs along with others has its long term benefits.

Second, progressing along the NH 48 list has been fun so far. If it weren't I wouldn't do it, but I think there's a difference between choosing to do a list for fun, and becoming obsessed about it. Finishing a list because of needing to finish a list is not the same as enjoying the journey. I've known a couple of people who rushed to complete the NH 48, and said that by the end they were so glad to get it over with so they could enjoy hiking again. I thought, Why? Why not enjoy and savor the experience of hiking each mountain in the first place instead of rushing through them and feeling that way?

Third, I love hiking, not because of reaching every peak, but because of how much I enjoy feeling my body in motion. It is the act of moving, preferably outdoors in wonderful weather with great views, that keeps me putting one foot in front of the other, whether it be hiking, cycling, or walking. The endorphin high created through exercise can't be beat, so the NH 48 is only a meer 48 workouts in a sea of hundreds or thousands of workouts. It is not about a list. It is about an ongoing journey that lasts a lifetime.
 
First of all, I have to say that I did trailwork before starting my ADK 46. That day I met many long time 46r's, all with a very good spirit about the forest and nature. I guess that is why I never had a bad impression of "list people".

This list is very important for me because it is the only way I can accomplish myself right now in my life. I am not working, and being at home with young children is not something that you get directly rewarded for. Yes, I am on trail very often, and my family would prefer me at home during week-ends. But they are very comprehensive. I also need that break from my everyday life. It is a survival issue for me.
 
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Carole

An excellent post and one I sympathize with.

There are pros in doing lists: they get you to places you might never go and see things that are totally unexpected.

It's like when I started back into back-packing when I retired. I decided to section hike the AT from the Deleware River north to Maine. It was a great choice because I saw parts of the northeast I would never camp out in if I hadn't decided to do the trail. They were unknown to me, or just not sexy enough. By the time I got to Maine I knew I wasn't obsessed - I had no intentions of become an AT completer for it's own sake. But I was ever grateful I had decided to do the trail, rather than just more camping in Harriman, or the Whites or wherever.

Same with lists. Especially the last one I just completed (NE FF - see my signature). I would never go to places in remote Maine I had never heard of but for this list.

but ... you are right. The list can take us over. The list is doing us rather than the other way around.

Audrey has a solutiuon that is attractive. If you read the thread about "Terminal Lists" she said the NE 3ks may be her terminal list since she doesn't expect to live long enough to complete it. I like that - I should pick one like that too ...
 
Pete_Hickey said:
AWWWWRIGHT! We need more people like you.
...
Interesting that you bring this up today. Cruddy Toes and I were just lamenting about how we have few new people coming out to work. I mentioned, that sometimes, I am the youngest (at 51) on our trail crew. It doesn't seem that 'new people' seem to want to come out much.

I've done some trail work down in the Catskills. And I'm younger than you are!

:D :D :D
 
Interesting thread. I recently read the Beck Weathers book "left for dead" about the Everest tragedy. He states in his book that he took up hiking/climbing to fill a void in his life from depression. Climbing big peaks was the only thing that could bring him out of it. Sounds very similar to the book "Good Morning Midnight" about Guy Waterman. His case was pretty much the same. Battling depression, he found that the mountains were the only thing that could keep the demons at bay. Their wives seemed to state that they were not good husbands because they let this take over their lives, and endangered themselves. From reading Beck's book, it seemed like he had been very determined to do the 7 summits. So, maybe lists can be conceived of as a bad pursuit, but to some "adrenaline junkies" it justifies their existence. The mountains provide a sort of yin-yang experience to some.
 
Okay so I don't so much have a list dilemma as much as a "hiking obsession". I didn't so much realize I even had an obsession until I began dating my current boyfriend and in the past year I have become aware at how MUCH of my time gets spents thinking, planning and dreaming about hiking and hiking and backpacking. When a thru-hiker says "I really think you have a problem" about your hiking obsession, then you know that you have a problem.

I have also realized recently that there is more to me than the summits I climb or the trails I hike and I hope never to be defined by just my accomplishments. I try very hard to make my hiking about my own self discovery and bonding with nature and with friends and not about one-upmanship or just ticking off a list.

I do have a number of lists I am working on but no longer with any urgency, thanks to Brian . . . he forces me to ask the same questions about myself that Carole has asked here and I think that is good :)

Brian and I have been tossing around the idea of adopting a trail or shelter along the AT. I do feel like I don't give back enough . . . I pick up trash and help move fallen limbs off the trail but haven't done much in terms of organized trail maintenance so I agree Carole, I think it is about time I gave back . . .

Good subject. thanks Carole.

sli74
 
good thoughts.

Pete- I've got those dates next summer written down for trail work! (Hope I don't have to have the rest of the peaks done by then to join in.) I guess I'll be the one younger than you if only by a year or so. I once had a FLT trail section but it had about half mile of serious briars, very serious briars and had to give it up. It needed someone with power equipment to keep it at bay every 4 weeks.
 
BorealChickadee said:
Pete- I've got those dates next summer written down for trail work!
Great! And you know what??? We never give first-timers the job of moving a full outhouse....usually..

Mark S said:
If you folks started doing trailwork days on weekdays, you may be able to lure this strapping 36-year-old out.
You're not the only one saying that.

timmus said:
First of all, I have to say that I did trailwork before starting my ADK 46.

Not only that, but your first peak was while doing trailwork! She was on my crew, and she even drew a picture of me, which I LOVE!!!!

http://newmud.comm.uottawa.ca/~pete/tmp/trailworkwithpete.jpg

And here are some pictures of that fine day.

http://newmud.comm.uottawa.ca/~pete/trailwork2005/may14/index.html
 
Excellent post and the beginning of a superb thread, Carole!

I became focused on lists since winter hiking with John Swanson a few years ago (just kidding!). But, I am glad that I have entertained myself by exploring new places on various lists rather than re-visiting my old favorites over and over (ex. Franconia Ridge). I will never regret any time that I have spent in the mountains, despite the personal conflicts that have some times resulted. And, I second your discovery of the rewards of trail maintenance, which has been one of my own proudest accomplishments the past six years on Mount Moosilauke's south side.
 
carole said:
Then I read the ‘who’s who’ of peakbagging and I question why are people elevated for doing more peaks, first list finishers, faster ascents, etc? I do find it interesting to see what people can accomplish but find that there are other people much more worthy of my admiration.

At first I thought, "Yeah, how come nobody really talks about other things." Then I thought of why.

Speed climbs, lists, etc. FINISH. They have a goal, and it's done. One can celebrate at the end.

If someone is a trailwork volunteer, it never ends. There is no point when you've finished and everyone can congratulate you.

But I think there is more. I don't think that most hikers can relate to someone putting a lot of time doing volunteer trailwork. It's easy to understand what's involved in completing a list, or when it takes you 7 hours to climb a peak, and Gilmo climbs it in 3. They are easy to relate to. But how do you relate to someone spending a bunch of weekends out walking donig this and that? I don't think most hikers know what it is.
 
Carole, you're awesome! I sometimes cringe when I talk to people about hiking and they ask what list I'm "working on". It happens so often. This March, a hiker I know said he "had" to hike Mt Carrigain by a certain day; after that day it "wouldn't count". :confused:

The same person asked me "what was your time?" when I said I hiked Mt. Adams. I played stupid and said, " oh yeah, a great time!" This person's wife has been turned off from hiking because of the competitive b.s. :(
 
there are two lists that matter to me;

- the list of mountains that i have been lucky enough to experience

- the list of mountains that i will get to experience in the future

those are my lists and i'm sticking to them. maybe i'll design a patch ...
 
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