Children, sports, hiking, and acceptable risk

[Maddy]

Maddy, I feel the opposite -- as a parent of young children, I see many people around me trying to bubble-wrap their kids. Go to a playground for five minutes and count how many times you hear a parent/teacher say "no," "don't do that," "that's not safe," etc. I'm talking about things like jumping off a curb that's two feet off the ground, swinging "too high," etc.

It's all good. It might not be how I would do it but it's their decision. If they want to be extra cautious they have that right. I say not a word to the mom next door when I see the unhelmeted 9yr old wiz by on that scooter with the 2yr old in his lap, because she has a right to weigh the risk and make her own decisions.

Teachers on the other hand might want to do things differently but we live in a litigious society. "Please don't hurt yourself on my watch."

As for speed records, etc. -- I'm all for it. If a kid wants to hike big mountains, that's awesome. If he or she wants to climb the big walls -- GREAT. People should do what they want to do, they should be encouraged to go for what they want, as long as they're taking appropriate safety measures. What does that teach our kids? That anything is possible. That they can accomplish something "big" if they want to. That small does not equal weak. That they should not hold themselves back in an effort to conform or please others. Please note I am talking about encouraging kids to go for what they want. I am NOT talking about parents pushing their kids to do anything. There's a huge difference.

I have nothing against speed records, or kids climbing big walls. I did not say kids should not do these things. Each family is unique.
I was just commenting on the change in our culture and wondering how and why it occurred. Perhaps the best answer would be "because it's there". It's available to us. It makes us feel good. We are bored with the status quo. We have high tech gear enabling us to accomplish great things. It could be a thousand different reasons. Some (not all) might be running toward something and some running away. Young people are taking on more and more challenges with their parents blessings and encouragement. It's all good. These kiddos are the pioneers of extreme sports. Perhaps they will motivate their peers to get off the couch.

What safety measures are appropriate? Each one must decide for themselves. There are degrees of risk and for those who don't calculate correctly and suffer a mishap the ultimate MEDIVAC choppers are on standby 24-7.

When all is said and done we shouldn't waste valuable hiking time thinking about who is nuts and who isn't.
Wait...does the size of the nut matter?

I am really happy you posted this topic. It beats mowing the lawn while I wait for the plumber to show up.

 

[TrishandAlex]

I was just commenting on the change in our culture and wondering how and why it occurred. Perhaps the best answer would be "because it's there". It's available to us. It makes us feel good. We are bored with the status quo. We have high tech gear enabling us to accomplish great things. It could be a thousand different reasons. Some (not all) might be running toward something and some running away. Young people are taking on more and more challenges with their parents blessings and encouragement. It's all good. These kiddos are the pioneers of extreme sports. Perhaps they will motivate their peers to get off the couch.

What safety measures are appropriate? Each one must decide for themselves. There are degrees of risk and for those who don't calculate correctly and suffer a mishap the ultimate MEDIVAC choppers are on standby 24-7.

When all is said and done we shouldn't waste valuable hiking time thinking about who is nuts and who isn't.
Wait...does the size of the nut matter?

I am really happy you posted this topic. It beats mowing the lawn while I wait for the plumber to show up.

A big "well said" to everything you wrote.

 

[Maddy]

Thanks and good luck with all your upcoming adventures.
Very much looking forward to reading your book!

 

[WhiteMTHike]

I've been taking my son hiking since he was 4 years old. He's seven now and has more than a few trails to his credit including one 4K...Waumbeck. I get dirty looks and comments from YUPPIES but I could care. Let them get on the trails sometime and learn to appreciate nature. In the meantime they can play it safe and take their kids to the golf course. My son and I will continue to tally up the trails.

 

[mtruman]

A little slow in responding on this thread - just saw it tonight. I think you know how I feel about this subject Trish. Thanks for starting this thread, sharing your thoughts and making many of us think about our feelings about this again. I've only ever had one regret about having my kid hiking or kayaking or doing any of those obviously overly-dangerous-things-for-a-kid and that's that I didn't start more of them sooner.

Jamie has always been totally fearless which often scares the #%^ out of me. She'll always jump off the highest rock into the water, run out to the edge of a cliff and grab a pair of snakes in both hands without thinking twice On the other hand it makes me very happy - not because she is putting herself in potential danger but because she's experiencing so much of life that way. And I realize also that she's either very lucky or a bit more careful (or maybe calculating) than I realize, because in her 16 years nothing really bad has ever come of that fearlessness.

So I guess maybe I'm nuts too. Heck I know I am. By giving our kids the opportunity and encouragement to push their limits and not be afraid for their every step for fear that it might be a mis-step I think we're giving them one of the greatest gifts we can.

 

[sierra]

When I was 15 and 16 yrs old my mother would drive me to manchester and drop me off at the highway. I would then hitchhike to the Whites and backpack for up to 4 days alone. I would then hitchhike back south to manchester and call her to pick me up, I wonder how people would react to her doing that these days?

 

[brianW]

Great discussion.

My 9 year old daughter started doing a summer swim team when she was 7, last fall she asked if she could swim year round. She loves it. We also do karate as a family. We encourage her but never forced her to swim.

 

[una_dogger]

I'm not a parent but I agree kids should be able to go for their dreams-- be they fitness, art, chess, equestrian sports- whatever.
One question I do have for the parents out there is how do you know about risks of later arthritis that may result from overuse/over inflammation of young growing bodies? I ask because this is certainly a concern with hiking young puppies to far too soon -- and it's only four or five years down the road when the effects show up. Even in the equestrian sports there is a large component of the sport that focuses on caring for the horse and preventing over use injuries.

As a parent/parents-- how do you decide how much your young athlete should be doing, and do you incorporate other balancing/stretching sports like swimming or yoga to your child's repertoire? If I were a parent, I would feel that repetitive use injuries and damage to joints/ spine as being my main risk concern to a child of mine long distance hiking.

Interesting thread...

 

[Maddy]

Met a nice 17 year old fella the other day who is a committed athlete. He is very distressed because he is now sporting one very bum knee, and the other one is starting to flare up. He was told it was cause by "overuse." He is NOT a happy camper!

As for pups, Molly has an app't tomorrow because she is lame. I have been very careful moderating her exercise and I hope it's "pano" and not something more serious.

Is it worth the risk? There are as many replies to this question as there are people. We are the land of the free and we get to decide. Of course the other side is we must be willing to live with the consequences of our actions.

Artificial joints are very popular now. I predict the best is yet to come. Perhaps we can look forward to a generation of bionic super athletes.

 

[freighttrain48]

This is a great topic that has turned into a really great conversation. Trish I have not been a member here long but I have followed your trip reports and stories for quite sometime and I must say I am very Impressed by your little ladies! They take on some big challenges that would test both the mental and phisical toughness that a lot of adults wouldnt be able to. Are you kids superhuman? I dont think they are, what I do think is that you have made this part of their lives and it has become normal for them which I think is awesome. Society today is all about sheltering people young and old from potental harm. Which at a quick glance doesnt seem to be to bad right? The problem however is when you shelter people it makes much harder for them to spread their wings and do something truly amazing with there lives. People that we are taught to admire in history rarely aired on the side of caution, the often lept without looking and the result is we remeber who they are and what they did. So I say kudos to you and your gal's trish keep doing what you do

also at little ricky I too sucked at t- shirt little league but it sure was fun

 

[Jimmy Legs and Little D]

Trish,
I read your essay on your blog and didn't realize until today you had posted it on Views. Many great opinions here. How about old fashion "common sense" and a bit of "caution" thrown in for good measure? I think that says it all.
I might add that you and Hugh have both done a tremendous job with raising Alex and Sage.

Donna

 

[una_dogger]

Is it worth the risk? There are as many replies to this question as there are people. We are the land of the free and we get to decide. Of course the other side is we must be willing to live with the consequences of our actions.

Artificial joints are very popular now. I predict the best is yet to come. Perhaps we can look forward to a generation of bionic super athletes.

I would think overuse/developmental risks could be lessened with an appropriate training plan that would include icing, stretching, nutrition, rest, and mileage/gain limitations until the child was physically mature enough for the exercise level to be in support of growth and development vs breaking down the body.

Peakbagging doesn't quite fit into the standard model if school/organized sports/ski racing teams/competitive gymnastics-- where there are coaches etc moderating/ directing the activity level (because let's face it, some kids are super motivated and might have to be told when to quit, take Maddy's 17 year old who requires a surgical repair.. .) just thinking that since it's not " mainstream" -- that may raise a few risk eyebrows among some...

But ultimately, Timmus echoes my sentiments exactly...

When I'm back from hiking a mountain with my kids (does elevation matters ?), I always feel so good about it, I don't care about what other parents thinks.

I know it's good for them, and it is not against any laws, point final.

To me, nuts are the ones that are waiting for other people's approval for whatever they wanna do.

However, what I might chose to do may still be different from what other parents may have chosen for thier children ... and I personally find myself landing on the conservative end of the spectrum in terms of Winter hiking..but my belief here, is that its ultimately the parents who decide for the children what's an appropriate activity. I don't know too many parents who suggest "hey kids, lets go do something totally dangerous and reckless today for the fun of it.", one can only hope they've thought it out before suggesting it.

Although, I do remember my Gram telling us kids to go play in the street....? ;-)

 

[TrishandAlex]

As a parent/parents-- how do you decide how much your young athlete should be doing, and do you incorporate other balancing/stretching sports like swimming or yoga to your child's repertoire? If I were a parent, I would feel that repetitive use injuries and damage to joints/ spine as being my main risk concern to a child of mine long distance hiking.

Interesting thread...

Can only answer for my own family -- the girls' pediatrician has always known about the girls' hiking and has been nothing but supportive. When Alex broke her leg in gymnastics last year, I made certain a team of pediatric sports injury specialists looked at her x-rays, MRI, etc. I made certain they knew of her hiking and exactly how much she does and how often -- wanted to make sure the gymnastics injury wasn't really the final straw of a repetitive stress injury from hiking. All the docs told me that the injury was gymnastics and gymnastics alone, and that she could go right back to hiking as long, far, and often as she wanted without worry as soon as she felt she was able.

So the simple answer is you ask the professionals and heed their advice.

As for incorporating other activities...that's not a problem for a normal, healthy kid, lol! Hiking once a week or twice a month, then swimming, karate, normal playtime outside in between...that pretty much does it. Don't need any repertoire, at least not for us.

 

[una_dogger]

Well, as someone who doesnt have children and never will, my furkids are the closest thing to. I full well know the challenges of describing hiking four k's to a veterinarian when planning hikes for my pup. It finally came down to "is it safe for my growing dog-child to be walking briskly on a treadmill on it's steepest incline for two to three hours, and then descending the same" for hiking something like Cannon?

That certainly changed their professional support from "you are going hiking, great! Good for you!" to "you need to go very slowly with this or your growing fur child will likely suffer very early degenerative skeletal issues and pain".

We heeded their advice and proceeded very conservatively, not starting peakbagging until my furchild was 12-15 in dog years , and here we are at dog age 56 with no lameness, no arthritis, and thriving health. Knock on wood! An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Of course, I have no idea how any of this translates into human child years, which precipitated my question. I have no idea at what age kids growth plates close or any of that important stuff. Funny how mainstream sports are easily perceived by medical professionals and peakbaging is such an enigma. Good for you for finding such great pediatricians to support your athletic children. I wish them many many years of enjoying the mountains.

I guess if I were a parent of a child, I would let them know they could finish their 48 on Washington on their sweet 16 (no matter what the month or if it was a schoolday!), and their reward for patience would be that they would still be hiking 4ks at age 100 . I guess that would make me conservatively nuts. As well as the mother of a 16 year old at age 60. Yikes!

To each their own.
;-)

 

[TrishandAlex]

Freighttrain, Little Ricky and Jimmy D -- thanks for the very kind words.

I would think overuse/developmental risks could be lessened with an appropriate training plan that would include icing, stretching, nutrition, rest, and mileage/gain limitations until the child was physically mature enough for the exercise level to be in support of growth and development vs breaking down the body.

I don't agree that any formal training plan is necessary. Not talking about Rainier or Hood, I'm talking the Whites. Walking itself is a great warm-up, and that's what we're doing...walking...with stretching thrown in when needed. We train for longer hikes by working up to them with shorter ones. We eat and drink well, and we rest when we need to. No mileage/elevation gain limitations are needed, since the girls hike, at most, four to five days a month. The other twenty-six + days of the month, they swim, play outside, do karate, run around being kids, etc. Pediatrician approves, and my kids are happy and healthy -- that's good enough for us.

As for coaches moderating activity level and therefore activities are okay...I dunno...even the best coaching can't prevent a simple accident that can land a kid in the hospital (see references in the original post). Teens flipping through the air and being caught by other teens? However, that's just me. Other parents might freak out about crawling to a summit in 55mph winds -- which the girls and I did yesterday. We were warm, dry, and moving so slowly that risk of injury was practically nil.

People question, raise eyebrows, and get upset at what they're not used to. Happens all the time.

 

[TrishandAlex]

I guess if I were a parent of a child, I would let them know they could finish their 48 on Washington on their sweet 16 (no matter what the month or if it was a schoolday!), and their reward for patience would be that they would still be hiking 4ks at age 100 . I guess that would make me conservatively nuts. As well as the mother of a 16 year old at age 60. Yikes!

To each their own.
;-)

My girls will still hike 4Ks at the age of 100 (if they want to). There's no need to make them wait until they're teens to hike 4Ks. I don't believe in keeping a kid from doing what they want to do if there's no good reason to do so.

 

[una_dogger]

To each their own.
;-)

Just to reiterate, that's my opinion. As for acceptable risk, I'm happy with being a nutty conservative myself. As Maddy so eloquently posted, any risk is acceptable so long as the the potential consequences are accepted as well. Such is life. Parents make the decisions they feel best for their kids while they are under their roof. After that, well.......hopefully kids go out and do something amazingly more adventurous than their parents EVER let them!


My questions were directed towards overuse injury prevention, not random accidents. As I said, that would be my concern in terms of risk (and the topic here is about Kids, Sports and Acceptable Risks) -- I think people in general think more of the acute "what ifs" and the random freak accident being the major risk factor when in my opinion its the chronic cumulative wear down that does the real long term damage in endurance activities, IMHO, and is perhaps the toughest to manage and prepare for. And I would think its something parents of serious child atheletes think about and plan around -- for example my older brother has been an elite soccer athelete for 40 years now, has been a leading coach of pre-teen and teen soccer for 20 years (in addition to teaching secondary biology in public schools), and his own four children ages 24 down to 12 are all extremely talented, nationally ranked and injury free players -- that was no accident. Kudos to him for taking the long view -- its paying for world class college education in two of the four and I suspect all four will be blessed with the same opportunities as well as being happy, focused, following their dream healthy kids with a bright future ahead.

As for crawling in 55 mph winds , I don't think I would do that myself short of having to rescue myself, personally..mountains always being there and so forth. I hike with pretty hardcore folks, and I don't know many who put themselves in those winds for fun..we must be wimps.

Happy Trails, interesting thread.

 

[TrishandAlex]

My questions were directed towards overuse injury prevention, not random accidents.

.....

As for crawling in 55 mph winds , I don't think I would do that myself short of having to rescue myself, personally..mountains always being there and so forth. I hike with pretty hardcore folks, and I don't know many who put themselves in those winds for fun..we must be wimps.

As I wrote before, overuse doesn't come into this. We hike, at most, four or five days out of the month. The vast majority of the hiking means low-impact walking -- not running, not going particularly fast, not rushing to get anywhere. There's lots of time in between hikes to rest. Soccer kids practice multiple times a week, and soccer is a high-impact sport, yes? School sports in general are high impact and the kids can practice multiple hours more than once a week. That's a lot more intense and, in my opinion, far more risky than once-a-week peakbagging.

I'm not sure where your brother's bio teaching comes into the point you were trying to make -- biology is a very general field. Teaching bio could mean going over Mendelian genetics, discussing plant life, going over the reproductive cycle of lemurs, etc., none of which helps in matters of osteology. IMO, one can't accurately assume very much about specific factors in the physical development of children based on general biology courses or what one has learned about a different (nonprimate) species (pet dogs).

Common sense prevails, as Jimmy Legs and Little D mentioned above. I have bio credentials (Masters from Harvard in biological anthropology, research in endocrinology, time with hunter-gatherers, research on primate adult and juvenile cranio-facial development), but none of that means very much when deciding whether my kid is allowed to walk five miles or ten. Well, one part of my education does come into play -- the knowledge that the women and children of our species evolved walking multiple miles each and every day in order to gather food. Regardless, checking in with the doctors is key. I'm sure your brother talks to medical professionals about his coaching, just as I do with the girls' hiking.


As for hardcore hikers not wanting to crawl in 55mps winds...

Funny, there was another group crawling to the summit on Thursday. A group of five highpointers, three of whom had done Rainier and Denali. They were laughing like the girls were, they were having a blast. There were also three thru-hikers who came into Madison Hut later that day who had gone over Madison earlier, who have hiked in those kinds of winds quite a few times during their journies.

I too know quite a few hardcore hikers and climbers...some of them make their living traveling the globe to hike and climb. They know, as do we, that if one is warm and dry, and not going very far, then there's very little danger. The trick is to stay low and crawl -- don't try to walk, THAT'S where the danger comes in. If you stay low and crawl, then there's no danger of falling (you're already on the ground).

As long as it's all done with precautions, and as long as everyone's warm and dry, it just becomes a matter of what one finds fun and enjoyable.

As you said, to each her own.


ETA: I know it's just your opinion, and you're entitled to it. However, you imply there's a great risk of long-term injury or that not many "hardcore" hikers would hike in heavy winds. Based on my knowledge and consultation with professionals, I don't agree with those implications...hence my response.

 

[una_dogger]

Trish -- I have no doubt where you stand -- just expressing what my direction would be if I were a parent and where I would place my concerns about risks -- I would be very carefully weighing the long term impact of the intensity of my very small child climbing thousands of vertical feet at a time, and I would probably chose to hike smaller stuff until they were older and make peak bagging something we did as a family in their early teens. That's not to say I would be discouraging my children, frightening them about danger or telling them they could get hurt -- I would be guiding them in a similar direction on a much slower time course.

I have tried to be very mindful of stating that it would be what "I would do" not "what you should do". You disagree with all my points, and that is fine.

Why did I mention my brother was a bio teacher? Random musings as my late night posts commonly are free flowing thought, I am often awestruck by his ability to not only teach a full classroom of kids all day, not only to coach droves of kids every weekend, but also to raise four amazing kids! Not sure where he finds the time or energy--he's a hero of mine . Sorry if that was confusing. Surely you weren't trying to minimize his achievements by listing your curriculum vitae?

And again...I know plenty of people who put themselves in 55 mph winds...and plenty who don't...those I hike with don't...you know my core group--we have a comfort level just like everyone else... Was I saying that I thought you were taking a risk? IMHO if I were in your shoes I wouldn't have done it and I am very comfortable saying that. It would have been outside of my comfort zone with young children and I would have used it as an opportunity to talk about how you don't always get the summit and that's part of the journey. But I am not in your shoes, and as I have stated time and time again -- the decision is the parent's.

 

[TrishandAlex]

Trish -- I have no doubt where you stand -- just expressing what my direction would be if I were a parent and where I would place my concerns about risks. I have tried to be very mindful of stating that it would be what "I would do" not "what you should do". You disagree with all my points, and that is fine.

Why did I mention my brother was a bio teacher? Random musings as my posts commonly are free flowing thought, I am often awestruck by his ability to not only teach a full classroom of kids all day, not only to coach droves of kids every weekend, but also to raise four amazing kids! Not sure where he finds the time or energy. Sorry if that was confusing.

And again...I know plenty of people who put themselves in 55 mph winds...and plenty who don't. Was I saying that I thought you were taking a risk? IMHO if I were in your shoes I wouldn't have done it and I am very comfortable saying that. It would have been outside of my comfort zone with young children and I would have used it as an opportunity to talk about how you don't always get the summit and that's part of the journey. But I am not in your shoes, and as I have stated time and time again -- the decision is the parent's.

Sabrina, I'm glad you posted and I've enjoyed our back-and-forth. It's made for an interesting conversation. Each of our posts contain valuable information, and I think we've both added significantly to the thread with our responses to each other.

Difference of opinion is always good, as long as differences are expressed respectfully (as they have been). There are different points of view in the world -- as long as all involved are healthy and happy, it's all good.

Thanks for the clarification regarding your brother.

You have every right to your opinion, of course. However, I will guess (and I emphasize that this is just a guess) that if you had children, and they showed an eagerness and capability to hike, and they had lots of experience...you might very well take them up the cone of Madison on such a day as Thursday. You never know 'til you're actually in the situation yourself. Or, perhaps your opinion wouldn't change. I used to think a lot of things about what I'd do and not do with kids...and then I actually had children, and all my preconceived notions went right out the window.

Thanks for the conversation.