Children, sports, hiking, and acceptable risk

[una_dogger]

I agree. I am very glad that you are willing to accept my opinions on a topic so close to you.

I can say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't take a child up on Madison in 55 mph winds, because I would not be there myself. 55 is strong enough to blow me down, and I wouldn't be crawling on those super sharp rocks on Madison.

As a parent, I am certain I would be more of the "putting the brakes on gently" type until they were a bit older. With enthusiastic young hikes, for me it wouldn't be a question of "can they" but "should they"?. Plenty of trails and small hills to climb and explore, you know, the terrain those hunters gatherers walked miles a day on. I bet it would be tough for me to say "we'll climb that one when you are older" but I would do it because that's my belief.

 

[TrishandAlex]

I agree. I am very glad that you are willing to accept my opinions on a topic so close to you.

I can say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't take a child up on Madison in 55 mph winds, because I would not be there myself. 55 is strong enough to blow me down, and I wouldn't be crawling on those super sharp rocks on Madison.

As a parent, I am certain I would be more of the "putting the brakes on gently" type until they were a bit older. With enthusiastic young hikes, for me it wouldn't be a question of "can they" but "should they"?. Plenty of trails and small hills to climb and explore, you know, the terrain those hunters gatherers walked miles a day on. I bet it would be tough for me to say "we'll climb that one when you are older" but I would do it because that's my belief.

Sabrina, I'm used to hearing other people's opinions on kids hiking 4Ks. This is nothing new for me, lol. I've been (and will continue to be) the recipient of a full range of responses. I've heard it all (the vast majority being positive). Not much bothers me.

Anyone's take on what they'd do with their own kids is perfectly fine, of course. Each parent should do what they want with their own kid (I too agree with timmus). Folks have different comfort levels and different life experiences which lead them to believe this, that or the other. More importantly, though, is that each kid is different. I'll do things with Alex that I won't with Sage, and vice-versa.

Sabrina, one correction to what you wrote above -- depending on the location and population of the hunter-gatherers, the terrain was/is not exactly gentle and rolling...it can be much rougher than the trails White Mountain weekend warriors experience.

FWIW, I just asked the girls if they thought the rocks on Madison were "super-sharp." Alex laughed and said no, Sage said some of them were very rough, but not sharp. No one got banged up or scraped while crawling amongst them. Just comes down to what you're comfortable with and used to.

Shoulds and shouldn'ts will be different for all parents. For me, to put the brakes on for no good reason (that I can see) doesn't make any sense. It's a wonderful thing, letting a kid discover that no matter how small they are, they can accomplish something huge.

At this point, we've probably both stated our points to each other over and over again and I've probably -- no, definitely --become repetitive. I'll therefore leave my responses to you at this. Don't see that I'll have anything else to add that hasn't already been said.

Respectfully,
Trish

 

[Billy]

Sabrina , Trish:

For the last dozen posts you two have gone back and forth and disagreed on just about every point. And yet there hasn't been one rude comment or ad hominem attack. What the hell?!?! You both have a lot to learn about turning a reasonable disagreement into a nasty fight. You're not going to get any of your posts deleted by pulling this kind of crap. Pathetic, both of you.

 

[TrishandAlex]

Billy, lol.

 

[Maddy]

Very funny Billie.

I have been pondering this since the discussion started. I am more of a conservative and go along with Sabrina's philosophy of hiking in the company of self and children both.

One question I have is this. What if a parent were hiking alone in the Whites with a young child on a blustery winter day. Mom or dad took a bad fall and was knocked unconscious. For the sake of discussion let us say that mom or dad regained consciousness in 30-60" ( maybe more, maybe less). Now h/she is awake but confused and disoriented, perhaps even combative as some head injury patients can be. The child is alone with a parent in this condition. No other hikers in the area. It is conceivable that the parent might have fallen over onto their pack making it inaccessible to the child. Poor cell service. Perhaps none at all. Once they were alerted, it could take rescuers hours to reach you. Is it possible to prepare a very young child for such an event?

If the parent had sustained a serious injury but could still speak they could verbally support the child and give instructions, as terrifying as this would be to a young one. It would be to me... and I'm an "old" one.

I have never observed a young child comfortable with seeing their parent very sick, seriously injured, or unconscious. They need lots of support even in a controlled environment.

You are now 5 miles from the road. The wind is blowing. The temps are low. Even if help was dispatched immediately, the child would have to hold it together and keep both alive for some time. Is a young one capable of doing this for what we know could be a prolonged period of time in any season?

What are the chances of something like this happening? One slip of the foot? Being distracted for one fleeting moment?
Over the years how many of us have taken scary falls and suffered serious injuries?
We often think in terms of protecting the child but mom and dad can also be victims when they least expect it. If you are solo with the child, it takes on a whole different dimension.

 

[una_dogger]

Billy,thank you for that comic relief.

Maddy -- wow!Great questions! Many of your thoughts I can relate to as they echo exactly the type of stuff I think about when hiking with my dog Terra in winter! I take that responsibility very seriously -- and aside from her snowballing issues that are somewhat resolved by her lightning blue lycra bodysuit that so many people love to poke fun at -- I do consider "what if I got hurt? Who would help her? Would I lose her?" ...too much of an "8 Below" scenario for my comfort level.

I have a SPOT. I'm not sure if Trish has one but IMHO its an excellent tool. I know my 76 year old Mom loves getting the updates that say "I'm OK and having a great hike" because it makes her feel secure and puts her mind at ease. I *also* have my SAR message on my SPOT programmed with the additional information that I hike with a dog, her name and physical description. It's just one more safety tool in the tool box, IMHO.

So much of what we consider to be risk is based on our own personal experience. I HAVE had a beloved canine partner DIE on the trail with me and there wasn't a damn thing I could do about it but cry, guilt myself and deal with all the what-ifs. That changed me. I am WAY more conservative now. I wish I could have prevented it. I wish I could say my furkid was "happier as a dead but hiking to the max dog", but the reality is that I'd rather have had him in my life for a whole lot longer. He was just doing what he wanted to do and what made him happy, who was I to take that away or think that I should take it down a notch?? So many more knowledgeable *did* warn me...and I didn't listen, I didn't believe thier "gut instincts" were smarter than me, because they weren't HIKERS. I live with that. And I promised myself for all my future furkids that I would NEVER forget that lesson or fool myself I was smarter again.

Sorry if I digress, this is the only way I can relate to the kid topics....

In terms of mitigating those risks you raise, which I think are excellent ones, having MORE adults on the hike would IMHO be safer. Safety in numbers. A back up adult or adults who will take charge of the situation if the parent is injured. Wow...I can only imagine how frightening that would be for all involved. How to prepare a kid for that? Gosh, I don't know if I'd even want to!

edited to say, I don't mean to suggest I sit around thinking of scary scenarios! Quite to the contrary, I tend to think up really big ideas and wonder if I can pull them off, that's the stuff that motivates and supercharges me -- but at the same time, I consider my responsibility to my furkid, and many times she stays at home and doesn't "epic" with me. My point, is that once a doubt or concern crosses my mind, I personally feel I owe it to myself to keep it honest, if I'm doubting or experiencing feelings of concern about something, there is probably good reason...I err on the conservative side myself and let my intuition be my guide...don't need more reasons than that!. ;-)

 

[TrishandAlex]

Maddy, thanks for bringing this up.

I have always carried a PLB (Personal Locator Beacon, more reliable than a SPOT), winter bivy and sleeping bag in my pack. Plus hand and body warmers, extra food, water, clothing, headlamps, etc. etc. etc. Since the age of 5, both my daughters have been drilled on how to get the bivy and bag out of my pack -- while I'm lying on it, unable to move -- and set everything up on her own. We go through a whole drill, multiple times a year, in all seasons and weather, in all temps. It's like a fire drill to them, something they need to know how to do, just in case. The risk of my knocking myself unconscious on a winter hike is next to nil, it's far more likely we'll get in a car crash on the way to the trailhead...and it's far more likely they'd get hit by a car while riding their bike...or break their necks doing gymnastics...but they go through the entire drill regardless.

IMO, anyone who hikes solo, with kids, or with a pet, would benefit by carrying a PLB and a winter bag (or summer bag depending on the season) and bivy. Don't hike recklessly just because you have these items, of course.. just think of them as extra safety measures.

Sabrina, you've lost a dog on the trail and you're now concerned about Terra. Since you do take Terra out on long, extensive hikes, you might want to consider always being prepared to call for help (PLB is better than a SPOT, but a SPOT is better than not having anything) and having a way to stay warm and dry -- in subzero temps, that means a winter bag (at least a negative 20) and a bivy, in summer temps, it means a summer bag and a bivy. Yes, it means more weight in your pack, but better safe than sorry, IMO. If you break a leg, then you and Terra have a way to stay warm and dry. Even if you hike in a group, the bag and bivy will keep you and your dog warm while the others help mobilize forces.

Though of course, I'll again repeat the sentiment that the risks involved with organized sports, riding a bike, and riding about in a car are far, far greater than the risks involved with hiking. The most frightening part of my hiking day is getting to the trailhead. There's usually at least one bonehead who insists on tailing me on route 302...sorry folks, I follow the speed limit...

ETA: the safety in numbers idea is a myth, IMO. I've been on group hikes where someone tries to play cowboy and take the group forward in situations I've felt are unsafe. It's not fun being the only one insisting to turn around. Sometimes groups can be safer, but certainly not always.

 

[TrishandAlex]

I've got to get a lot of work done over the next few days, so it might be a while before I revisit this thread. To any future "it's risky" posts, I'll ask that you refer to the OP and the references. If it's something I haven't already responded to, or if it's something not already addressed in the OP, then I'll respond to it in a few days.

I appreciate everyone's posts. Especially Sabrina's -- her comments have kept this thread going for longer than I'd anticipated, which I think is a good thing for many reasons.

Sabrina, I think I've covered almost anything you might have to say...though I will add this -- you keep trying to relate by thinking about your experiences with your dogs. I understand that, I did the same kind of thing myself with my pets before I actually had kids. I only bring up the following because of your repeated statements about how you don't have kids so you're trying to use pet ownership to get a sense of how you would feel about 4K hiking with children. As a pet owner for all my childhood and my adult life (both dogs and cats over the years) and now the mother of two, all I can say is: the pet/child analogy isn't. Meaning, pet ownership is light years away from parenthood in every possible way. There is no comparison. You may think you know exactly how you would feel if you had kids, but I promise you that you don't. I was told the same thing by parents while I was pregnant -- "you may think you know what you're going to do and how you'll be, but just wait." It's true. Motherhood changes you fundamentally, in so many ways. So while I understand what you're trying to do -- and the points you've raised are good ones and worthy of discussion, I'm not dismissing them -- I have to emphasize that if you do actually have children, you might just change your mind on pretty much everything you've ever believed (and not just 4K hiking with kids).

 

[una_dogger]

Motherhood changes you fundamentally, in so many ways. So while I understand what you're trying to do -- and the points you've raised are good ones and worthy of discussion, I'm not dismissing them -- I have to emphasize that if you do actually have children, you might just change your mind on pretty much everything you've ever believed (and not just 4K hiking with kids).

Trish, I see your point about your own motherhood changing your beliefs, but I'm not certain that its a universal change -- case in point the parents who have "raised eyebrows". I can state with certaintly that if I wouldn't feel comfortable taking my dog there now, I sure as heck wouldn't be taking my small child (or anyone else's for that matter).

children. As a pet owner for all my childhood and my adult life (both dogs and cats over the years) and now the mother of two, all I can say is: the pet/child analogy isn't. .

Did you mean : "Isn't for YOU"?? ;-)

The human animal bond is extremely strong -- many many books on this -- and many childless adults who will tell you its not only the next best thing for them, it IS the best for them. (and for some it may be their only option as well). I'm not going to expound further on this -- its a whole topic in itself -- but I disagree -- connection, communication, love and responsibility transcend what some may view "conventional"--an individual can feel just as responsible for a pet as they can for a child, IMHO.

PS Good tips on pet safety for the other readers out there, we've got our pack covered, thanks.

 

[brianW]

One of the hardest falls I had was at Lake Dennison, Winchendon MA in winter walking around the campground. I had my daughters in a sled but at times I carried of them in one a pack. Slipped on some ice, had some good bruises and easily could of hit my head. An accident like this could happen any where not just in the mountains.

 

[Maddy]

Maddy, thanks for bringing this up.

Though of course, I'll again repeat the sentiment that the risks involved with organized sports, riding a bike, and riding about in a car are far, far greater than the risks involved with hiking. The most frightening part of my hiking day is getting to the trailhead. There's usually at least one bonehead who insists on tailing me on route 302...sorry folks, I follow the speed limit...

ETA: the safety in numbers idea is a myth, IMO. I've been on group hikes where someone tries to play cowboy and take the group forward in situations I've felt are unsafe. It's not fun being the only one insisting to turn around. Sometimes groups can be safer, but certainly not always.

I think the one very significant difference between having a serious accident in the mountains and an accident close to "civilization" is that emergency medical personnel respond much faster and can most often get you to a trauma center during the "golden hour" when lives can be saved. We all are well aware that accidents happen and often when we least expect them to.

I brought up the scenario of the head injury because I had fallen backwards and smashed my head on a winter hike with the AMC a number of years ago. Prior to this event, I also firmly believed that chances of this happening were nil. SURPRISE! In my wildest dreams I never thought I would sustain a neck injury smashing into a tree skiing down the headwall at Killington. On both occasions the group served me well. Ya gotta love the site of that ski patrol!!! I was also VERY HAPPY for my group when I got seriously hypothermic in No MN, in the middle of the night on my Outward Bound expedition. NO DOUBT I would be DEAD now if it was not for my "group". I was the one on the team with the winter hiking/camping experience. No way would this happen to me! I was actually thinking this when the leaders gave the hypothermia class before we set out. GOSH...ANOTHER SURPRISE! Will I ever learn?

So much of what we consider to be risk is based on our own personal experience. I HAVE had a beloved canine partner DIE on the trail with me and there wasn't a damn thing I could do about it but cry, guilt myself and deal with all the what-ifs. That changed me. I am WAY more conservative now. I wish I could have prevented it. I wish I could say my furkid was "happier as a dead but hiking to the max dog", but the reality is that I'd rather have had him in my life for a whole lot longer. He was just doing what he wanted to do and what made him happy, who was I to take that away or think that I should take it down a notch?? So many more knowledgeable *did* warn me...and I didn't listen, I didn't believe thier "gut instincts" were smarter than me, because they weren't HIKERS. I live with that. And I promised myself for all my future furkids that I would NEVER forget that lesson or fool myself I was smarter again.

Sabrina...I a really sorry about your dog. That is a very poignant, heartfelt story and I for one will never forget the lesson that you communicated so well. Thank you for sharing it with us.

It comes full circle and always goes back to having to answer for ourselves the very basic question "Am I taking an acceptable risk, and can I live for the rest of my life with the consequences if this doesn't work out?"

 

[TrishandAlex]

Trish, I see your point about your own motherhood changing your beliefs, but I'm not certain that its a universal change -- case in point the parents who have "raised eyebrows". I can state with certaintly that if I wouldn't feel comfortable taking my dog there now, I sure as heck wouldn't be taking my small child (or anyone else's for that matter).

Did you mean : "Isn't for YOU"?? ;-)

The human animal bond is extremely strong -- many many books on this -- and many childless adults who will tell you its not only the next best thing for them, it IS the best for them. (and for some it may be their only option as well). I'm not going to expound further on this -- its a whole topic in itself -- but I disagree -- connection, communication, love and responsibility transcend what some may view "conventional"--an individual can feel just as responsible for a pet as they can for a child, IMHO.

Glad I checked this before running out the door this morning --

No, I don't mean just for me. Motherhood changes you. Fundamental biological and behavioral changes. It starts with the biological changes a woman goes through during pregnancy, continues through lactation, and goes throughout infancy, toddlerhood, and childhood. Biological, hormonal, and resulting behavioral shifts that are a direct result of motherhood, all for the "selfish gene" purpose of bonding the mother to the child. From the production of certain hormones to becoming generally more cautious...to attitudes about pets. I don't know a single pet owner who wouldn't immediately put that beloved pet down or seriously consider getting rid of it should that pet suddenly and seriously bite their child. Pet owners might think they feel responsible to their pet as they would to a child...until they actually have a child. Then everything is put in perspective. I'm sure childless pet owners love their pets to the point where they think they have a mother-child-like relationship, but that's anthropomorphizing and not biology. Not to say that loving a dog isn't a good thing -- it is, and I'm all for it. Not knocking the love an owner feels for their pet in the least. Just can't seriously compare it to motherhood. Which is a good thing, right? Pity the child whose mother equates her with the family dog!

That's all I'll say on that, perhaps another thread could be created for this issue. Dont' want to pursue it any further here.

The point of all of the above is, you might think you know what you'd do with a child based on what you'd do with you'd do with your dog, but trust me, you don't. You can't because you haven't had a child (the process of which puts a woman through fundamental biological and behavioral changes, see above) -- and even then, it's more about the individual abilities and personalities of that child.

Funny, I would NEVER take Max up Madison in 55mph winds, since he's not human and can't handle the rocks with the same physical movements as my children or understand the very specific instructions I give on how to do what. Also, he's not as heavy as my kids. He'd probably blow away in 25 mph winds, lol.

Okay, I think we've officially beat this horse to death. Gotta get to work now.

 

[sierra]

To be honest I think you worry to much, things will happen no matter how much you plan or focus on the potential. As far as parents verses dog owners, I respectfully disagree about the level of concern involved. The other day I was out hiking in the woods with my dog and got caught up collecting items, when I looked up my dog was no where to be found. I ran around yelling as loud as I could, my dog is well trained and came running back fairly quick, thank god. I know the connection between my dog of tens yrs and me is on par with Sabrinas connection to hers. To say kids are on a whole different level is a little self rightous to me, but then again Im not a fan of kids so I guess its all perscetive.

 

[DougPaul]

The underlying basics:

Pets are for companionship*, kids are for passing your genes on. A species can survive without companionship, but will not if it fails to pass its genes onward**. Big difference.

* Some animals which are popular pets can also give survival advantages to humans: eg guard dogs and rodent-catching cats.

** Animals (eg humans...) maximize the probability of species survival by individual members trying to maximize the survival of their offspring.

Doug

 

[Craig]

Perhaps one of the AMC trip leaders can give us AMC's policy re: children on organized hikes, summer and winter. Surely that will put this debate to rest.

Any takers? Kevin?

 

[Maddy]

Perhaps one of the AMC trip leaders can give us AMC's policy re: children on organized hikes, summer and winter. Surely that will put this debate to rest.

Any takers? Kevin?

This debate will never rest. It will live on long after even the youngsters on this board are gone to hiker heaven.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Perhaps one of the AMC trip leaders can give us AMC's policy re: children on organized hikes, summer and winter. Surely that will put this debate to rest.

Any takers? Kevin?

Am not sure there are any policies per se, particularly since the volunteer AMC trip leaders tend to follow the "best practices" developed within their own chapters. And, what might develop as a "best practice" for trip leaders in the RI chapter might not mirror that in the NH or ME chapter. Not better/worse - just different, as there are different conditions within each chapter.

As far as I'm concerned personally when wearing that trip leader hat - I have very clear opinions regarding children on organized hikes. But, I wouldn't presume to tell Trish how to raise her kids.

If time permits, I'll post an account relating a real-life experience another trip leader and I had with a father and his 12 yo son on a Tom/Field/Willey hike in late December. Ultimately, it ended with everyone down safely and without injury. For me, it clarified/solidified my own level of acceptable risk I'm willing to assume for young people.

 

[TrishandAlex]

Kevin, I'd guess that the standards on AMC group hikes with kids are fairly strict? IMO, that makes total sense. I know I would be far more conservative with someone else's kid, since I wouldn't really know that child and therefore wouldn't have a real sense of what he/she could and could not do.

 

[David Metsky]

Moderator note
OK, this one got out of hand. Everyone take 5, go for a hike, and post when you can do so without this kind of drama.