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Thread: Tourism pledges

  1. #31
    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    Old discussion. If this were a private business, the problems would have been solved long ago, or they would have been out of business. Gather data, pareto the data, fix the root cause and ignore the whiners.

    What's obvious here (and I suggested this years ago in another SAR thread) is that the lack of a light source generates a lot of easily avoidable SAR events. I would guess it would be high on the pareto. So (again, as I suggested years ago) you pick that as a "focus issue." Simple rule - put an educator at the major trailheads who reminds you to bring a light, has lights for sale if you need one, and lets you know that if you create a SAR event due to lack of a light you are paying the full cost plus a $500 fine. And that problem goes away. Then, redo the pareto and pick the next "focus issue."

    This is easy. But no one's doing it. They'd rather whine about how hard it is to do, and how they need to develop a "comprehensive plan" (read "retirement security for state agency employees"), or how charging a fine will negatively affect SAR (read "we want to make sure we have a budgeted income stream for our SAR group"). Heck, here in NY, the state won't even pay for trailhead educators. The only ones we have are being provided by tiny underfunded volunteer organizations, while the state spends 16 million dollars building a toilet for the tourists at the highway rest area.

    Get used to it. Pay your taxes, or move...

  2. #32
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCD View Post
    Old discussion. If this were a private business, the problems would have been solved long ago, or they would have been out of business. Gather data, pareto the data, fix the root cause and ignore the whiners.

    What's obvious here (and I suggested this years ago in another SAR thread) is that the lack of a light source generates a lot of easily avoidable SAR events. I would guess it would be high on the pareto. So (again, as I suggested years ago) you pick that as a "focus issue." Simple rule - put an educator at the major trailheads who reminds you to bring a light, has lights for sale if you need one, and lets you know that if you create a SAR event due to lack of a light you are paying the full cost plus a $500 fine. And that problem goes away. Then, redo the pareto and pick the next "focus issue."

    This is easy. But no one's doing it. They'd rather whine about how hard it is to do, and how they need to develop a "comprehensive plan" (read "retirement security for state agency employees"), or how charging a fine will negatively affect SAR (read "we want to make sure we have a budgeted income stream for our SAR group"). Heck, here in NY, the state won't even pay for trailhead educators. The only ones we have are being provided by tiny underfunded volunteer organizations, while the state spends 16 million dollars building a toilet for the tourists at the highway rest area.

    Get used to it. Pay your taxes, or move...
    I remember that thread and you making this suggestion and thought it was a fantastic idea, and I'm not trying to take credit for that idea if I'm coming across that way. It just seemed like a really good, concrete example to use that stood out in my mind as an easy way to illustrate what I meant by "force" people to help themselves and address an issue. Some of the other problem issues are a lot more "murky" than this one but I'm sure can be addressed in a similar way. I'm just surprised at all the outrage these incidents stir up here and elsewhere when they happen, the criticism of the actions taken by these people and yet somehow we are diametrically opposed to limiting their behavior in any way to solve the problem because it infringes on their individual freedoms. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 46/48; NY 46: 6/46

  3. #33
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    Imagine a scatter plot, with the X axis being people who know the right thing to do (less knowledgeable on the left, more on the right). The Y axis being people who want to do the right thing (higher being people who try harder, lower less so). This produces 4 types of people:

    1.) Top Left - People who want to do the right thing but don' know any better
    2.) Top Right - People who know what to do and do it
    3.) Bottom Left - People who don't know and don't care
    4.) Bottom Right - People who do know and still don't care

    I think most people on this forum fall in to #2. We're hardly the target demographic for the education we're discussing. There are some people in society that fall into #4, people that for some reason think their poop doesn't stink, or don't care if other people have to smell it. While those people might stick out, I think they are a minority.

    I think most people fall into #1 and #3, and I think the debate is over what the ratio is. If most people fall into #1, then education should be enough. If most people fall into #3, all education will do is make them move to #4, with perhaps some converts that, once they learn will change their ways.

    So, how do you educate people that maybe aren't looking to be educated? Tourism places having guest make pledges seems as good a way as any. I think of it as akin to getting the safety talk before rafting. You can't enforce it, but you might move some people from #1 to #2.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    We often disagree, but this is a good analysis. Thanks. I hope some people at various government agencies can think clearly like this.

  5. #35
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJsName View Post
    Imagine a scatter plot, with the X axis being people who know the right thing to do (less knowledgeable on the left, more on the right). The Y axis being people who want to do the right thing (higher being people who try harder, lower less so). This produces 4 types of people:

    1.) Top Left - People who want to do the right thing but don' know any better
    2.) Top Right - People who know what to do and do it
    3.) Bottom Left - People who don't know and don't care
    4.) Bottom Right - People who do know and still don't care

    I think most people on this forum fall in to #2. We're hardly the target demographic for the education we're discussing. There are some people in society that fall into #4, people that for some reason think their poop doesn't stink, or don't care if other people have to smell it. While those people might stick out, I think they are a minority.

    I think most people fall into #1 and #3, and I think the debate is over what the ratio is. If most people fall into #1, then education should be enough. If most people fall into #3, all education will do is make them move to #4, with perhaps some converts that, once they learn will change their ways.

    So, how do you educate people that maybe aren't looking to be educated? Tourism places having guest make pledges seems as good a way as any. I think of it as akin to getting the safety talk before rafting. You can't enforce it, but you might move some people from #1 to #2.
    I donít think you would have much luck getting people to sign pledges in the White Mountains. There are a lot of #3ís and #4ís whom already donít care and will continue to do so even if they did sign a pledge. We already have people breaking laws whom donít think the rules apply to them. Kind of like the folks whom thought parking on the side of 93 in Franconia Notch was OK. Institution of another system would also have to be funded and staffed. The Whites are already under staffed with out bringing on another system to take care of. Also as I have already stated many would perceive it as intrusive and the effect could possibly have the reverse result. Just look at how many complain already about all the guidelines and rules in Baxter State Park and still leave there TP around for someone else to pick up.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  6. #36
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCD View Post
    We often disagree, but this is a good analysis. Thanks. I hope some people at various government agencies can think clearly like this.
    Maybe NASA?
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  7. #37
    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    Of course we are talking on this thread about state and federal land management agencies.

    But to join you in the thread drift, I well remember 50 years ago when NASA was the bastion of the best and the brightest. And when being a "rocket scientist" meant something.

  8. #38
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    As an example, when the trail head stewards are educating hikers don't just suggest they bring a headlamp. Make sure they have one, it has batteries and works, etc and either fine them if they don't or have one available for mandatory sale so they don't head out on the trail without one. Obviously you can't do this for every facet of people's lives (and I'm not suggesting we do) but this constantly recurring pattern of the same errors in rescue after rescue really is nonsense. I mean how many people need to be walked out of the woods by SAR without a headlamp before we start treating them like adults and punishing them or preventing the occurrence? Far better uses for their time and resources than reliving the same mistake over and over.

    And if we're not trying to move the needle at all then just get rid of all these programs, signage, etc and just use the money to beef up the SAR budget for the inevitable rescues that result from the uninformed and unconcerned public. We're just complaining about the problem while offering no solutions in a resource consuming spiral of nonsense.
    I understand your frustration, but there are a few problems with your suggestions. One, the Steward program is barely used and considering how little ground they cover, it hardly makes a dent. The Whites have so many access points, there is no way to reach even a small number of total visitors. I don't think you can make someone buy something either, whether they need it or not. If the Whites were set up like Baxter or Yosemite, you can impact everyone at the gates, but the Whites are to open and there is no way to greet people who enter, not would you find the funding for it. The Whites are no different then any other mountainous region in the USA, the Social Media platform has blown the hiking world wide open. My friends in CO complain about rescues just like we do and they get a comparable number. You cant mandate intelligence and you cant stop people from entering Federal land. I have always advocated for charging for rescues and I mean getting every penny back. Then you blast the same social media platforms with the incidents and the associated charges incurred. Maybe that might make a difference, at the very least it will pay for the rescue cost that strain and destroy the Fish and Game budget year after year. I stopped worrying about this issue a few years back, its not worth it to me to stress over something that you cant control. If I see unprepared hikers and they ask for help, I will gladly spend the time to help in any way I can. If I'm not asked, I just move on by and let nature take its course.

  9. #39
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    I agree that it can't be forced. I envisioned this kind of stuff being successful when it's brought up by tour groups and other companies that provide adventure and trips. Kind of like the AMC does with their dinner talks (at least a couple life overheard will using the bathroom at dinner time).

    Other than that the next best ways to make sure that it's part of the educational curriculum. This seems like something people should learn in kindergarten.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJsName View Post
    I agree that it can't be forced. I envisioned this kind of stuff being successful when it's brought up by tour groups and other companies that provide adventure and trips. Kind of like the AMC does with their dinner talks (at least a couple life overheard will using the bathroom at dinner time).

    Other than that the next best ways to make sure that it's part of the educational curriculum. This seems like something people should learn in kindergarten.
    People go to New Hampshire to have recreational experiences. In other words have fun. Heck the sign says "Live Free or Die" when you drive over the boarder. I truly believe a lot of folks leave their common sense at home in the State they came from. I feel the most for those from Maine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTVNZojojU
    Last edited by skiguy; 11-06-2019 at 06:13 PM.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  11. #41
    Senior Member Grey J's Avatar
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    Speaking of the New Hampshire motto, I found this plate in Concord worthy of a photo.Click image for larger version. 

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    "I am a pilgrim and a stranger"

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