Ranger,Web,Confict

[Reekee]

DEC web site states that camping is allowed above 4000ft during the winter months in the Adirondacks.

Ranger at ADK Loj informed us that this is not true and camping is NOT allowed above 4000ft any time of the year.

We complied with the ranger and changed our plans but the question remains.
Who is right, the regs on the web site, or the ranger?

 

[Grumpy]

DEC web site states that camping is allowed above 4000ft during the winter months in the Adirondacks.

Ranger at ADK Loj informed us that this is not true and camping is NOT allowed above 4000ft any time of the year.

We complied with the ranger and changed our plans but the question remains.
Who is right, the regs on the web site, or the ranger?

Believe the ranger. Here’s what the applicable DEC regs say:

"§190.13 Wilderness Areas in the Adirondack Park

"a. Applicability. Unless otherwise specified, sections 190.0 through 190.6 and sections 190.8 through 190.9 of this Part apply to all units of state land in the Adirondack Park which are classified as wilderness by the Adirondack Park State Land Master Plan. In addition, specific regulations for individual wilderness areas in the Adirondack Forest Preserve are set forth in this section. In case of a conflict between a provision of this section and a provision of sections 190.0 through 190.6 and sections 190.8 through 190.9 of this Part, or a provision of Part 196 of this Title, the provision of this section shall apply.

". . .

"d. Camping restrictions. In the High Peaks Wilderness Area, no person shall:

"2. camp at any location above 4,000 feet in elevation;

"3. camp at locations which are greater than 3,500 feet in elevation but equal to or less than 4,000 feet in elevation except at a primitive tent site; . . ."

Also, this definition:

"5. High Peaks Wilderness Area means those lands in the Towns of Keene, North Hudson, Newcomb and North Elba, Essex County; Harrietstown, Franklin County; and Long Lake, Hamilton County described in the most current copy of the"Adirondack Park Land Use and Development Plan Map and State Land Map" on file in the offices of the Adirondack Park Agency. The High Peaks Wilderness Area shall include the Adirondack Canoe Route Zone, the Western High Peaks Zone, and the Eastern High Peaks Zone."

I could find no exception for winter in these regulations.

G.

 

[Reekee]

This will clear up the confict that does exist from the information we recieved form the web site. The ranger did take the print out we made and was going to bring it to the attention of thoughs in authority. There is misinformation out there and following a ranger's directive is always a prudent move. I'm in the process of looking for the reg concerning winter camping above 4000.

 

[Grumpy]

Fyi . . .

The regs section that I quoted above was picked up directly from the DEC's web site. I did go right to the regs, though, using the site's search function and key words "part 190." Searching with key words "high peaks" turned up similar results.

G.

 

[Rick]

Reekee -
Do a google search for High Peask Unit Management Plan. Wen tinto effect around Q1 or Q2 of 2000.
It specifically mentions the camping over 4K.
Aaah, what the heck. I just googled it here.
HPUMP Actual Written Document
HPUMP Summary Outline

 

[Reekee]

Rick, That's about as clear as it gets. I'm still looking the doc. which conficts with the doc. you sited.

 

[tonycc]

Rick, thanks for highlighting the link for the current rules. I've been confused by this also. I can not find this information on the NYSDEC site, in fact here is the back country rules link:
http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dlf/publands/bacrule.html

This really needs to be updated.

Tony

 

[lumberzac]

Rick, thanks for highlighting the link for the current rules. I've been confused by this also. I can not find this information on the NYSDEC site, in fact here is the back country rules link:
http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dlf/publands/bacrule.html

This really needs to be updated.

Tony

Tony, the link you posted lists the general rules for the entire Adirondack and Catskill Parks. Many of the wilderness areas have adopted additional rules as the need has arisen. Think of it like comparing State and town laws.

 

[Rick]

In fact, Lumberzac was the one who pointed it out to me at ADKForum, I hadn't realized you could no longer camp over 4'000.

 

[tonycc]

Tony, the link you posted lists the general rules for the entire Adirondack and Catskill Parks. Many of the wilderness areas have adopted additional rules as the need has arisen. Think of it like comparing State and town laws.

I understand that, but how do you think I got to that page?
Take a look at this link:
http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dlf/publands/adk/hpwa/
So, maybe this is the page that needs to be fixed?

No matter what, the new regulations are not easy to find nor is the status of the UMP obvious. These DEC pages are the ones I depend on before heading out into the wilderness. I learned of the change in rules last year when I ran into a ranger, that doesn't happen too often. These rules need to be available to a friendly web page.

Also, the status of the UMP is not clear to me. On the above page it is linked as "Proposed UMP Amendment". On the linked page the finalized date is June 18, 1999, thus we should be way past the three year implmentation plan. However, it looks like portions have not been implemented such as the South Meadows Road closure.

I am not trying to be difficult, I am very anal about knowing and following the rules. I get very frustrated when I feel like I don't know the rules despite my best efforts. It takes the edge off the fun when I am worried about being busted due to ignorance.

While I'm at it, could someone point me in the correct direction to find the new rules on group usage of the Dak wilderness, particularly the climbing areas? I have heard through the grapevine that only small groups can climb at places like Chapel Pond Slab. I have not been able to find anything other than the UMP of 9 for camping, and 15 for day use. What I heard was the climbing areas have smaller limits than this.

Thanks,
Tony

Just Added after writing the above:
I used Grumpy's advice (Thanks Grumpy) and did a DEC site search for High Peaks (since UMP and 109 meant nothing to me) and one of the hits is here:
http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/press/pressrel/2001/2001x81.html
This should be referenced from the High Peaks Wilderness Area page in addition to or replacement of the general rules.

 

[Reekee]

You Found It!

TonyCC, That is the reg that has caused the confusion. On that information we planned to camp at Indian Falls on our approach to Marcy which is above 4000ft and you know we would have got our butts kicked if we got caught. We wanted to abide by the rules so we did the search and came up with the site you posted. It's a good thing we made a copy of the reg in case the above scenario played out. As stated above the ranger was surprised by the site confict and felt it did need correcting.
Well intentioned hilkers are not always wrong! The fact remains, the two regs sited above do conflict and can case cause confusion as in my case and are in need of correction.

Below is what we found on the site that caused the confusion and is inaccurate as Grumpy points out.

EXCEPT in emergency or between Dec. 15th and April 30th camping is prohbited above elevations of 4000 feet in the Adirondacks.

 

[1ADAM12]

Trail Registers

I also believe at the trail registers there are laws posted about camping. I also remember that the trailhead into Marcy Dam says in bold black lettering there is no camping above 4000 feet even in winter

Happy trails,
ADAM

 

[Grumpy]

EXCEPT in emergency or between Dec. 15th and April 30th camping is prohbited above elevations of 4000 feet in the Adirondacks.

This is not so.

See Part 190.13 (of NY State regulations governing use of public land), as cited above, for the actual rules that apply to the High Peaks. No camping at all above 4,000 ft, and there is no exception for winter camping.

This is an interesting discussion about what to believe and what to discount. I agree with those who suggest that the New York DEC should make sure its web site content is in date and accurate, as should any state agency. But, as we see, sometimes there are oversights, miscues, etc..

I look for dates. Undated material can be very questionable as to its currency and reliability, in my opinion. This is especially true when researching regulations in an era and in areas when and where the tweaking and revision of rules is an ongoing process, as it is and has been for years in the Adirondacks (and just about everywhere else).

Generally, going right to the applicable regulation is best. Far more consistently reliable than summaries, even though the verbiage can be more difficult to wade through. It is one of those summaries that has caused the confusion here, even though the summary does note that other special rules may apply to specific areas.

G.

 

[Reekee]

The fact still remains that there is a conflict with the information on the sites that are in need of correcting and the ranger himself agreed that this was a problem. He was also surprised that the the reg we gave him was dated 12-26-04. This was NOT a matter of discounting information for my own gain. The fact the we were looking for information on camping in the first place proves our intentions in doing things right and the ranger appreciated the fact that we even made the attempt.
What is now becoming very clear to many people is that you are not allowed to camp above 4000 in tha Adirondack high peaks in winter and that is the beauty of this web page and I'm sure you would argee that conficts like this one need correcting and well intentioned hikers can be misled.
So stop being so GRUMPY! Just Kidding.

 

[Grumpy]

Hold on . . .

The fact still remains that there is a conflict with the information on the sites that are in need of correcting and the ranger himself agreed that this was a problem. He was also surprised that the the reg we gave him was dated 12-26-04. This was NOT a matter of discounting information for my own gain. The fact the we were looking for information on camping in the first place proves our intentions in doing things right and the ranger appreciated the fact that we even made the attempt.
What is now becoming very clear to many people is that you are not allowed to camp above 4000 in tha Adirondack high peaks in winter and that is the beauty of this web page and I'm sure you would argee that conficts like this one need correcting and well intentioned hikers can be misled.
So stop being so GRUMPY! Just Kidding.

Now, wait a minute. I’m not getting grumpy just yet. But I could get that way shortly.

I just checked out both links provided by tonycc, above. The first led me to an undated summary of “Backcountry Hiking and Camping Rules” at http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dlf/publands/bacrule.html. I printed it out, and, shazzam! there was a date in the upper righ hand corner -- 1/5/05 -- which just happened to be today. This is the page that (erroneously) says no camping above 4,000 ft except in emergencies or during the winter.

Well, the next link tonycc provided (this one) took me to a DEC “press release” dated May 9, 2001. This announced that permanent regs had been adopted for the Adirondack High Peaks Wilderness Area. This release also provided a summary that clearly states camping is prohibited above 4,000 ft and indicates no exceptions, which comports with Part 190.13 of the official state regs. (See the official state regs that apply here) Interestingly enough, when I printed out a copy of the May 9, 2001 press release, there, in the upper right corner was the date, 1/5/05!

I think this all is rather confusing, myself, and that the DEC should clarify material available on its web site. In fact, I said that above.

I have accused nobody of being self-serving, and applaud anyone who makes a conscientious effort to abide by the rules. However, it ill serves the interest of folks using this forum as an information source when clearly erroneous information is posted, as was done above:

“Well intentioned hilkers are not always wrong! The fact remains, the two regs sited above do conflict and can case cause confusion as in my case and are in need of correction.

“EXCEPT in emergency or between Dec. 15th and April 30th camping is prohbited above elevations of 4000 feet in the Adirondacks.”

I responded to this with a direct comment that it is not so, per the actual regulations that are in effect. Actual regulations and summaries of them are not the same thing. The regs rule; the summaries don’t. This is an important concept. There is no conflict in the actual regulations that the DEC has posted.

The cited “Backcountry Hiking and Camping Rules” summary is general in nature (and says so). And even though it specifically advises, “for information about specific land areas contact the Regional Office responsible for that area” it is prospectively misleading insofar as it applies to the High Peaks. This should be spiffied up in the interest of clarity. The fact that we’re having this discussion probably underscores that point very well.

G.

 

[Reekee]

Very well stated and I'm sure this thread will help many people, thanks to your posting the actual regs in place. See you're not so Grumpy after all. Have a great winter and thanks for your input. Reekee

 

[Desalad]

I know it goes against all that is fair and honest, but what happens if you camp above 4,000' ?? I guess nothing if you don't get caught, but how would one get caught, and what type of repercussions would one face if in fact caught?

NOTE: I am not suggesting that I will ever disobey the law of the land, I am just curious about what would happen to someone if they did.

 

[lumberzac]

I know it goes against all that is fair and honest, but what happens if you camp above 4,000' ?? I guess nothing if you don't get caught, but how would one get caught, and what type of repercussions would one face if in fact caught?

NOTE: I am not suggesting that I will ever disobey the law of the land, I am just curious about what would happen to someone if they did.

My guess is a hefty fine from a ranger.

 

[TCD]

It's not surprising that there is confusion over this. The "Winter Exception" used to be in place, until the new UMP a few years ago. This is a typical problem of having the same information in lots of different places. When there's an update, it very hard to update all the different places at the same time.

 

[Ned Kipperson]

I know it goes against all that is fair and honest, but what happens if you camp above 4,000' ?? I guess nothing if you don't get caught, but how would one get caught, and what type of repercussions would one face if in fact caught?

NOTE: I am not suggesting that I will ever disobey the law of the land, I am just curious about what would happen to someone if they did.

Most likely, someone would report you. You would be met be a forest ranger at your campsite who might return you to your vehicle and bring you in front of a judge to answer the charge. The fine is between 0 and $250. Since you are well out of state, you would pay at that time, unless you requested a trial. The evidence of an outdated website and conflicting regs for the whole region and the High Peaks Wilderness City could be entered as evidence. THEN the judge would find you guilty and a guaranteed fine of $250 would be imposed.