Kudos once again to EMS

[Mark_151]

Time for my annual EMS plug.


The recent cool mornings have been getting me thinking about the approaching hiking/skiing season. So, I decided now was the time to bring my beloved EMS 2 layer Goretex jacket in for a lining repair. They had replaced the entire main zipper for free last year, and I hadn't noticed the lining damage until after I got it back.

The person at the counter brought the jacket out back to get an idea whether the repair would be a lining replacement or repair. He was gone for quite some time and another employee was about to go looking for hime when he came back with my jacket.

He told me that it was a repair, and that instead of making me fill out the form and come back in a week or two to retrieve the jacket, they had someone actually do the repair!



Instead of being cheap like I was the last time, I spent what I thought the repair would've cost in other goods.

Mark

 

[BigAl]

Yes, I can also speak highly of EMS. I bought a pair of trek poles from them in the summer of 2002. I've broken them three times since then...not because of defects, but due to my "stressing" them. They've repaired them every time. Due to this, when I need new equipment, I go there first.

 

[stoopid]

Defects/issues under normal use I will return, but 'breaking' something and returning it for replacement/repair under the guise of being 'defective' is unethical.

In computing circles (my area of interest), many overclockers break items through overvolting and return (RMA) these items back to the manufacturer for replacement or repair. Over time this has eliminated warranties for some items, made some vendors reluctant to accept RMAs, and even reduced warranty duration on many other computer components.

[so I don't buy that whole "I aint hurting anyone" excuse a lot of people throw up when confronted about abusing the manufacturer warranty]

 

[stoopid]

Sorry, that last post was in response to BigAL's post (which I should have quoted).

So far I've been lucky and haven't bought any defective gear (but my Leki trek poles are starting to look pretty beat up, and one really doesn't retract anymore). I won't return them, I've gotten a lot of miles and tough terrain with them. It was through heavy use that the damage occurred. They've earned their $100 cost.

 

[Jasonst]

I hear ya, stoopid, but I don't believe they would offer the service if they didn't profit from it. LL Bean is the same way. Satisfaction is their key phrase, and satisfaction is defined in a number of ways. They want your loyalty, and these types of guarantees DEFINITELY win mine.

 

[Mark_151]

I hear ya, stoopid, but I don't believe they would offer the service if they didn't profit from it. LL Bean is the same way. Satisfaction is their key phrase, and satisfaction is defined in a number of ways. They want your loyalty, and these types of guarantees DEFINITELY win mine.

You said it!! There's an EMS-branded windbloc fleece jacket there with my name on it, my trusty LL Bean one is due for replacement.

Mark

 

[Neil]

Defects/issues under normal use I will return, but 'breaking' something and returning it for replacement/repair under the guise of being 'defective' is unethical.

Now, now Kevin. Lighten up. If they don't want to take the busted poles back they know they don't have to. But what great cheap publicity. How many packs, sleeping bags, Gore-tex jackets and pants, snowshoes etc. they must have sold thanks to their policy!

 

[Guinness]

Here we go again, every few months we get a post that prophesies how great EMS is. Get Real!

Don’t get me wrong, EMS has a good warranty and great people. I continue to buy from them on a regular basis. However, their EMS branded products are CHEAP and not reliable! Most VFTT posts talk about how the product fails, then EMS backs it up with a repair or replacement. Maybe I am simplistic, but I don’t want to be in the backcountry or on a mountain with failing EMS branded equipment. I have had too many failing EMS products, whether it is in the Adirondacks or on Mount Rainier. I need complete trust that my equipment will be there to serve and protect me in any environment.

Example: my EMS brand hiking poles failed (they were 8 months old) on Mount Rainier – not very reassuring. Every EMS product I ever bought - gloves, coats, shirts, pants and tents have failed under normal use in the Adirondacks. Some products failed on the first outing! I am not alone, my climbing partner had EMS GorTex pants that split open on Rainier! Another hiking partner had her EMS poles fall apart on a recent Adirondack trip. Think about it – 100% of the EMS branded products I ever bought did not survive under normal wear in the mountains. How can you or I have trust in their products?

How can I trust my life or that of any climbing partner with substandard equipment? If you knew my buying habits you would know that I buy a lot of equipment. Now I buy only main branded equipment, including The North Face, Bibler, Marmot and Sierra Design just to name a few. These companies have a proven track record and as far as I am concerned I believe in them. They can be purchased from EMS, REI or many other companies. Why does EMS promote their products? They profit more selling their own products while charging big name prices. To replace or repair a few products is just the cost of doing business.

I have had only one warranty claim on any main brand equipment in eight years. That was on THF Tent poles that failed at –30f, which they replaced.

Yes, EMS is a good company. They just use cheap products for their own brand.

Of course this will open Pandora's box, but what the hell .

 

[Mark_151]

Sounds like you've had a run of bad luck, ADK. Perhaps it's true EMS branded stuff is cheap. If that's a recent development or goes back a ways, I'm not sure. All my EMS stuff is clothing, not "hardwear", and the oldest stuff goes back to 1993 and is still fine. The newest EMS product I have is the jacket in question. I bought it in 1997 to replace an EMS System III that **I** destroyed ice-climbing (A jacket is under quite a bit of stress when it's under the harness and you're reaching up with ice tools -- don't do that!). I went to have it repaired and they told me it wasn't worth it, and gave me it's full value towards the jacket I now have. That jacket was also used for everything from hiking to climbing to skiing. The zipper would be what I'd call normal wear. Again, I dropped it off and just left instructions to call me if the repair price went over $50.00. They repaired it for free. I'd put the quality of this jacket against anything TNF currently makes, BTW.

As far as the name brands being necessarily better -- I was once talked into buying a Western Mountaineering Puma SDL -20F bag at a well-known outdoor store in Manchester, NH. The salesperson waxed eloquent about many of the points you made when I told him I was looking at some products from EMS, REI, etc. I told him about the EMS policy, and his defense was that this bag wouldn't give out, so I really didn't have to worry. He convinced me, and I blew the almost $600 on the bag. Also said that in the event of a mishap, their service would equal EMS's. I took this to mean they'd rexchange the bag for one in the store if I brought it back.

First trip out, January, doing the Bonds, setting up camp, temps at -20F, everyone's turning in. I get into the bag, start zipping it up, and the zipper pull comes off in my hand. -20F, 8 miles from the road, open bag. About as scared as I've ever been without a couple hundred feet of air under my butt above a crappy piece. Luckily one of the other people along had seen it all before and had been carrying safety pins along with other McGuyver type stuff. So I spent the night at least warm, but trapped until the next morning when someone let me out. Luckily, another person had a Koflach boot malfunction the next day and we all had to bail off the trip.

Bringing it back to the store the following Monday, I found out that the service mentioned wasn't a gear exchange. It was free packing and shipping of the bag back to WM for warranty repair! I told them that my season was in jeopardy of being ruined, but they steadfastly refused to give me another bag hanging in the store. Guess what I did while waiting for the bag -- rented from EMS. If it had been an EMS branded bag, I would've gotten a new one.

I did get 'em back a few months later when they had the same North Face down jacket in the store as EMS, which wasn't moving because they were about $60 more expensive that EMS was selling them for. Told 'em I'd get it there if they didn't match the price, which they did, while grumbling about how the "chains" were taking their margin away. Wonder why.....

 

[stoopid]

I hear ya, stoopid, but I don't believe they would offer the service if they didn't profit from it. LL Bean is the same way. Satisfaction is their key phrase, and satisfaction is defined in a number of ways. They want your loyalty, and these types of guarantees DEFINITELY win mine.

The response was to a post that specifically (almost bragging) stated that the item was broken 3 times and returned for service under the return policy. By strict definition that policy does not account for accidents or abuse.

I would like someone to intentionally break an item that can be returned to EMS under their warranty, and TELL the EMS employee that it was broken intentionally/abused. Talk is cheap, especially on the internet. Now bring this to reality -- EMS will not replace that item. Why? Because if you don't lie then you don't get the replacement. You have to lie in order to get an abused item replaced under warranty.

I don't even see how this topic is debatable.

 

[Jasonst]

The response was to a post that specifically (almost bragging) stated that the item was broken 3 times and returned for service under the return policy. By strict definition that policy does not account for accidents or abuse.

I would like someone to intentionally break an item that can be returned to EMS under their warranty, and TELL the EMS employee that it was broken intentionally/abused. Talk is cheap, especially on the internet. Now bring this to reality -- EMS will not replace that item. Why? Because if you don't lie then you don't get the replacement. You have to lie in order to get an abused item replaced under warranty.

I don't even see how this topic is debatable.

Here's their policy off their website
The EMS Unconditional Guarantee:
We stand behind the performance of every product we sell. If ever a product doesn't meet your expectations, we will gladly repair it, replace it, or refund your money - whichever you prefer.

I guess if you intentionally abuse the product, then you will have to live with your own conscience. However, if the item is damaged during harsh but normal use, I don't see the big deal. The bottom line is that they want your loyalty.

 

[Tuco]

Reagring EMS Brand products- do we know who actually produces them? I was in EMS yesterday and was looking for new poles and at first glance EMS was all over the place on the poles. A closer look at the fine print showed they were made by Komperdell. So I wonder if reputable manufacturers are making the stuff EMS sells under the EMS name and perhaps bad experiences with the EMS name are just bad luck?

Or maybe not, who knows just some food for thought.........

 

[Quietman]

Change in return policy.

Just an FYI. EMS is changing their return policy so that after 10/03/04 you MUST have your receipt if you want a CASH refund. It's printed at the bottom of the receipt for the bargain basement shoes that I just picked up.

I wonder if this applies to stuff purchased before 10/03/04?

 

[Mark_151]

Re: Change in return policy.

Just an FYI. EMS is changing their return policy so that after 10/03/04 you MUST have your receipt if you want a CASH refund. It's printed at the bottom of the receipt for the bargain basement shoes that I just picked up.

I wonder if this applies to stuff purchased before 10/03/04?

Don't know if it's urban legend or not, but I heard of people buying everything needed from EMS for a trip, using it, and taking it all back for a refund to in effect get a free rental. Could have something to do with it?

 

[Bob]

Now I buy only main branded equipment, including The North Face

Most of these companies, including Marmot make all their gear overseas, probably in the same factory.
EMS stuff is as good as any of the others, nobody abuses gear more than I do...

 

[Blue]

I buy where I get the best deal -- REI, EMS, L.L. Bean, Mountain Gear, Hilton's etc., but as for EMS--

I've returned more gear to EMS than any other store.
I wish their stores were more equal -- the one in Harvard Square is basically for city folk and they don't usually have what I need. They are nice, however, and recognize me because I'm always in there looking in the sale racks.

-L

 

[trailbiscuit]

I'll continue to shop there on a regular basis, watching for sales on branded items, but ... would never buy an EMS label for a critical piece of winter gear like a shell, tent, pack, bag, boots, etc.

This is exactly how I feel about EMS. I would extend it to critical gear no matter what the season. When I pick up most pieces of EMS gear, I just feel like I would break it. It doesn't instill the confidence in me, as say, a piece by Mountain Hardwear. When I'm in the hills, I don't want to rely on something that I think I might break.

Keep in mind, the profit margin for EMS is not in "hardcore" gear, it's in fleece vests for people who never actually go outside.

ADK4487 - You mention The North Face as a stong company. I feel in the last couple years their gear has really gone downhill. Catering more to trendy, psuedo-outdoors folks. It's too bad because I have a couple of older pieces by them that are bomber.

 

[Rick]

I've returned more gear to EMS than any other store.
I wish their stores were more equal -- the one in Harvard Square is basically for city folk and they don't usually have what I need.
-L

Blue, I used to work at a destination store years ago as well as a mall store. The mall stores were more geared towards urban wear and the look of outdoors, with gear here and there. The Destination stores were the stores with more technical gear marketed to outdoors folks intent more serious pursuits. Both types tried to cover the middle ground to please both types of purchasers though.

I used to have a lot of EMS gear just because of the huge employee discounts on EMS, but have since sold most of it off via ebay or gear swaps over the years (Back then there were no pro-deals for employees, but there was the biannual employee sale).

I do beleive that EMS tents and packs are on par with companies like Bean, Eureka and Kelty - probably even made in the same foreign factories, but I do not beleive they stand up to what I consider higher end mfgs such as BD, MSR, Sierra Designs, Mtn Hdwr and others.

If my gear decisions were made on price alone, as they were years ago, I would still have much EMS gear, however, I agree wholeheartedly with ADK4487 in that I would absolutels rather pay a little more and have gear I don't have to worry about breaking (and thus replacing).

 

[Mad Townie]

On the return issue, I once stood in line at Bean's behind a guy who wanted a new pair of jeans after a belt loop let go on his (obviously) well worn jeans. The woman tried very hard to be nice to him and succeeded, but you could tell it took work.

I walked up next and tried to pay for a new zipper on my very old fleece jacket. She wouldn't let me, insisting that the zipper should last at least as long as the whole garment.

I guess it's all in one's attitude.

 

[Guinness]

ADK4487 - You mention The North Face as a stong company. I feel in the last couple years their gear has really gone downhill. Catering more to trendy, psuedo-outdoors folks. It's too bad because I have a couple of older pieces by them that are bomber.

trailbiscuit, I agree with you 100%. All my older TNF stuff is bomb proof and still going strong. I was in Chicago last week and I visited the TNF store. They are focusing on the trendy customers and less on serious climbing. Their packs are getting way outdated as so many other companies have embraced lighter and better technologies, TNF packs are still boat anchors.

I did buy a -20f TNF bag last year and I hope it will last as long as my 22 year old Blue Kazoo. But I doubt it will. I should have bought Mountain Hardware or better yet, Feathered Friends. Since TNF went public, they lost their focus because they had to start reporting to stockholders. Now that they are part of VF Corp. they need to make a profit and they will do it through mass marketing. They win and we lost a serious brand name.

P.S.
And with this post I am now a "Senior Member".... I feel special.