Marcy Dam

[Gremlin]

Now that the dam and bridge are out, is there any way to get from one side to the other? If you come in from the Loj can you get over to do Avalanche Pass?

 

[Viewseeker]

they have re-routed you just before the dam, crossing(rock-ice hoping) across,be careful with wram rains and temps we have had

 

[Neil]

We crossed yesterday and by looking at the exposed edge the ice that we trod upon appeared to be greater than 6 inches thick. Open water was easily avoided.

The flow rate was quite impressive for this time of year.

 

[DSettahr]

It's been raining all day today, and fairly warm, so the water in the brook is sure to be up. If you want to avoid the crossing, you can approach from South Meadows instead- it's a longer hike in, but it's still fairly flat.

We all might as well start getting used to the South Meadows approach anyways, since there are plans to move the main trailhead from the Loj to there. I wonder if the bridge going out on Marcy Dam will be a catalyst that makes this change actually happen?

 

[skiguy]

We all might as well start getting used to the South Meadows approach anyways, since there are plans to move the main trailhead from the Loj to there. I wonder if the bridge going out on Marcy Dam will be a catalyst that makes this change actually happen?

Is there anywhere to get updated info on this matter? Are you referring to the plan of a couple of years ago for the ADK to build a new High Peaks visitor center at the entrance to South Meadows road? Last I heard this had been scrapped but what I heard was not from an official source. As of a few years ago the ADK Master plan reflected this change among many other proposed changes. Sorry for the thread drift.

 

[DSettahr]

I hadn't heard that the plan was scrapped, but it wouldn't surprise me- it's been over 10 years I think since the plan was made, and we haven't seen so much as one shovel's worth of dirt moved.

It seems likely that such a project would require a constitutional amendment at the very least- a visitor's center and large parking lot at south meadows goes pretty far beyond something that is just an "administrative structure."

There's also of course a lot of kinks in the plan that would have to be worked out by the DEC/ADK. Would public access to Heart Lake still be permitted? or would it be only for paying guests of the Loj/campground? If public access is still permitted, what would stop everyone from going there instead so that they don't have to hike the extra mile to Marcy Dam? If public access is not permitted, would hikers climbing Algonquin have to hike in to Marcy Dam first? Algonquin could become a 14 mile round trip hike, rather than the current 8... And if public access is no longer permitted, what about Street and Nye and Indian Pass?

It seems that the most likely solution would be that Heart Lake would still allow public access, but would likely have significantly reduced parking available.

 

[Viewseeker]

it just makes no sence, if not the damn repair the bridge crossing, cant be that hard and otherwise limit access to one trail.... makes no sence

 

[DSettahr]

it just makes no sence, if not the damn repair the bridge crossing, cant be that hard and otherwise limit access to one trail.... makes no sence

I'm sure that a new bridge will be built across Marcy Brook at some point. It's a pretty major trail, and the potential impacts of not having safe crossing far outweigh the impacts of having a bridge, given how much use the trail gets. There simply wasn't time to do so this fall, what with all of the other trail maintenance that had to happen and took higher priority.

Given the proximity of Marcy Dam to the Loj and the home base of the ADK pro crew, it wouldn't at all surprise me if a new bridge was built sometime early on this upcoming summer.

 

[skiguy]

I hadn't heard that the plan was scrapped, but it wouldn't surprise me- it's been over 10 years I think since the plan was made, and we haven't seen so much as one shovel's worth of dirt moved.

It seems likely that such a project would require a constitutional amendment at the very least- a visitor's center and large parking lot at south meadows goes pretty far beyond something that is just an "administrative structure."

There's also of course a lot of kinks in the plan that would have to be worked out by the DEC/ADK. Would public access to Heart Lake still be permitted? or would it be only for paying guests of the Loj/campground? If public access is still permitted, what would stop everyone from going there instead so that they don't have to hike the extra mile to Marcy Dam? If public access is not permitted, would hikers climbing Algonquin have to hike in to Marcy Dam first? Algonquin could become a 14 mile round trip hike, rather than the current 8... And if public access is no longer permitted, what about Street and Nye and Indian Pass?

It seems that the most likely solution would be that Heart Lake would still allow public access, but would likely have significantly reduced parking available.

My last understanding was that what was proposed was a new High Peaks Vistor Center was to be built on DEC land across from the entrance to South Meadows Road at the expense of the ADK Mountain Club. The building would be maintained by the Club in exchange for the land donated by the DEC. The existing parking lots for hikers not staying at the lodge would be revegetated. Remaining parking would be for paying Loj and Campground Guests only. Day Hikers and overnight backpackers would have to pay and park at the new Visitor's Center. A new trail which part of already exists for XC skiing would lead hikers up to the Loj to access Algonquin,Street,Nye,Heart Lake, and Marcy Dam. Again this is only my last understanding not neccesarily entirely true. I'm sure there are others whom are more in tune with this matter than I am.

 

[skiguy]

We had a pretty lengthy discussion on this a few years back.

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=19868&highlight=Master+Plan

 

[DSettahr]

The building would be maintained by the Club in exchange for the land donated by the DEC.

This would require a constitutional amendment (necessary any time NYS wants to sell, give away, or exchange land in the Adirondacks). The process for this is lengthy (must pass two successive meetings of the state senate, then go to a public vote where it most be approved by 2/3rds of the voters of NY state).

In any case, building a new major trailhead and associated facilities at South Meadows when there is a trailhead functioning perfectly well at Heart Lake is going to be a hard sell. It wouldn't surprise me if it never happened unless the ADK decided to close the Heart Lake trailhead to the public first (which also doesn't seem likely).

 

[skiguy]

This would require a constitutional amendment (necessary any time NYS wants to sell, give away, or exchange land in the Adirondacks). The process for this is lengthy (must pass two successive meetings of the state senate, then go to a public vote where it most be approved by 2/3rds of the voters of NY state).

In any case, building a new major trailhead and associated facilities at South Meadows when there is a trailhead functioning perfectly well at Heart Lake is going to be a hard sell. It wouldn't surprise me if it never happened unless the ADK decided to the Heart Lake trailhead to the public (which also doesn't seem likely).

This is a big part of the reason that I think the plan has been scraped. Personally I can only hope so. Although I would not mind seeing Winter Access to the South Meadows Road returned. My understanding is that is a Town Road and the town of N. Elba has no desire to keep it plowed therefore the Barriers.

 

[Gremlin]

Thanks, everyone. It wouldn't be till Feb. 18.

There's a lot of good news here. Closing South Meadows Road and prohibiting road-side parking on state road to force peopl to pay ADK 9USD a day is a real bummer. IMO ADK is a rip-off - outside of summer jobs for students they do little for the park. Their trail to Marcy Dam is a disgrace.

There was a time when 'non profit' meant public good, but now it means big bucks in salaries for the lucky few.

Re-opening South Meadows would be great, even if they charged a reasonable fee for entrance. As it is now 18 USD for an overnighter is ridiculous.

 

[Neil]

You don't have to pay for parking if you don't want to. There are free alternatives to Loj parking but you have to "earn it" by walking a little more.

 

[DSettahr]

Thanks, everyone. It wouldn't be till Feb. 18.

There's a lot of good news here. Closing South Meadows Road and prohibiting road-side parking on state road to force peopl to pay ADK 9USD a day is a real bummer. IMO ADK is a rip-off - outside of summer jobs for students they do little for the park. Their trail to Marcy Dam is a disgrace.

There was a time when 'non profit' meant public good, but now it means big bucks in salaries for the lucky few.

Re-opening South Meadows would be great, even if they charged a reasonable fee for entrance. As it is now 18 USD for an overnighter is ridiculous.

Oh no you didn't.

I think we need to get some facts straight.

First, South Meadows Road is not closed to force hikers to pay the ADK to park. It'd closed because it's a dirt road that is only used by hikers. There just isn't any economical justification for maintaining it in winter. It would cost thousands of dollars to keep it plowed and accessible- and for what? So we don't have to hike that extra mile? No one lives on it, and it doesn't go anywhere useful for 99% of the population.

Second, the trail to Marcy Dam, with the exception of the short section on ADK property, is not really the ADK's, it's the DEC's. The DEC is primarily responsible for it's care. Yes, the ADK does trail work, but it's contract work for the DEC. And the trail isn't in horrible shape due to any lack of maintenance- that trail, like so many other trails in the High Peaks, has received thousands, if not tens of thousands of hours of work. The main reason the trail is in such rough shape is because we hike on it. It doesn't matter how much effort you put into taking care of a trail, when it gets as much use as the Marcy Dam trail does, there is going to be a huge level of impact. Sure, we could take a bulldozer and level the trail, then pave it, and it'd always be in great shape- but would it still have that wilderness feel? All things considered, compared to what it could be- the trail to Marcy Dam is in great shape.

Interesting side note on hiker psychology: Hikers absolutely hate trail improvements (in the form of rock stepping stones, stair cases, bog bridges, etc). Next time you're hiking to Marcy Dam in the summer, pay close attention. Every time there is a bog bridge, the trail widens from all the hikers who choose to walk around it. Anywhere there is a stair case, you can be sure to see an eroded path along side it from those who choose not to use it. We're stupid in that we don't realize the impacts we have when we choose not to use these improvements, and we're lazy in that we don't want to expend the extra energy it would take to use them. As anyone proficient in trail work knows, whenever you make any kind of improvement to a trail, constructing it in such a way so as to subliminally force hikers to use it is an important consideration.

Third, as for the ADK doing "little" for the park... well... let's see:

• Pretty much single handedly rose to the occasion when it became obvious that the Alpine zones on the summits of the High Peaks were in serious danger. Both the summit steward program and the efforts at revegation have been huge in protecting these areas.
• Provided for the continued care and maintenance of 100+ lean-tos in the Adirondacks through their "adopt a lean-to" program.
• Through their winter climbing school, have allowed hundreds of people to gain confidence and experience in winter hiking in a setting that maximizes their safety and the quality of their experience.
• In addition to the winter climbing school, have provided thousands of hikers with the opportunity to experience the Adirondacks in a safe setting through their organized trips. Remember, not everyone is comfortable with the idea of hiking alone, and it's super important that those who aren't have access to trips like these.
• Provided millions of hours of trail work in both the Adirondacks and the Catskills, through the professional crew, volunteer trail days, and adopt a trail programs. And again, when trails in the Adirondacks are in rough shape, it's often not from lack of trail maintenance, but high levels of use from the hiking public.
• Provided much needed lobbying when laws that would have been detrimental to what we value in the Adirondacks were in danger of being passed in Albany.

And the list goes on... I'm sure we could keep going if we wanted to.

Don't get me wrong- I don't agree with everything the ADK does either. But the positives of having a organization like the ADK far outweigh any of the negatives- and I think it's really important to remember that.

And finally- At the Loj, have you ever tried asking if you can pay less at the gate? Explained maybe that you can't afford it, and/or you visit the Loj a lot and have already given a lot to the ADK? I get the sense that the parking fee at the Loj is lot like museums in New York City- the entrance fee is a "suggested donation." I can't imagine that they would turn you away if you were polite and explained that you were only willing/able to give a certain amount. Especially since denying access to the woods to those of lower economic status doesn't really seem like it would jive well with the rest of the ADK's mission.

 

[Neil]

IIRC some time ago (5 or 6 years) the ADK sued the US government regarding a lack of enforcement of the Clean Air Act. (something to that effect).

The results of the lawsuit were less acid rain and mercury in the Adirondacks.

I renew our family membership every year and as a result Loj parking is a miserly $5.

 

[skiguy]

Ok let's all get knowledgable and do the funky do wha dance. We all get it.Neil is the man and BlackSpurce is the mistress of all endlessness on these issues. In all seriousness people of the throne some real input on your preferences going forward would be appreciated and facilitate your and everyone else's perpetuation of the kingdom.

 

[Neil]

Ok let's all get knowledgable and do the funky do wha dance. We all get it.Neil is the man and BlackSpurce is the mistress of all endlessness on these issues. In all seriousness people of the throne some real input on your preferences going forward would be appreciated and facilitate your and everyone else's perpetuation of the kingdom.

I know that I think I understand what your trying to say here, going forward, and like I can really dig it but its going in and out of focus so maybe I only think I know what is it what you're attempting to communicate. Definitely ready to go 100 posts on this issue.

 

[skiguy]

I know that I think I understand what your trying to say here, going forward, and like I can really dig it but its going in and out of focus so maybe I only think I know what is it what you're attempting to communicate. Definitely ready to go 100 posts on this issue.

Glad we understand each otherThe last time I participated in this topic it went less than fifty posts so anything to pump up the count this timeIn all seriousness any insight to the current state of affairs as far as the above mentioned ADK Mountain Club's Master Plan?

 

[Gremlin]

Thanks for the Beta, everyone. I knew I'd get some flak on my post and I'll try to explain.

Personally I'd rather pay the park for its services than some other organisation. I would willingly buy a day use sticker for parking, or a season pass if it went directly to the park. Also, I would be willing to pay extra as a non-resident just as I do for my NYS hunting and fishing licences. I do it for two reasons: it's fair and it's worth it.

I am more than willing, also, to pay for a season ticket at VIC Paul Smith's (I didn't do it because the conditions this year are atrocious - no fault of theirs). I know that we are all deep into budget cuts and I know the fee at VIC goes directly to maintenance and to keeping that valuable resource open (and free to PS's students).

I understand that lobbying for the park is important; my own club, the Alpine Club of Canada, with their house in Keene, participate in all consultations. The ACC, however, does not run a commercial operation. We also participate in trail maintenance/improvement.

As for road maintenance, NYS clears the road on ADK land to their lodges, but not on state land - I don't get it, particularly as there are camp sites and privies on South Meadow Road.

Skiguy has many good points, but it would, in my opinion, be a tragedy if the park were completely privatised. I guess the really where I'm coming from.