between a rock and a hard place...

[spider solo]

During winter hikes I try to keep a look out for places that I cold use in case things went wrong and I need an emergency shelter.
Often I see overhanging rocks where there is little or no snow and I think "if the going gets tough I'll make use of that".
.....Then as I go along a short distance I see an upturned tree with the roots sticking in the air and a natural hollow formed.

So my questions are... which of the two would be warmer?
Is it safe to assume the rock is coldest of all?
Also
I have often read that you can use the 'well" around a tree as an emergency shelter. Remembering the fellow and his dog that did that (he lost both feet..the dog was ok)
Would a person actually be picking the coldest of places based on the thought that cold air sinks. ?

 

[skidoc22]

How about a snow cave?

Don't specifically know the answer to your question but here's a cool link for snow caves. Might be challanging to build one this year with the lack of snow but seems as though it's doable if necessary to save life and limb.
http://www.etisurvival.com/snocv.htm

 

[Stan]

Well, you can always find a freshly slaughtered moose, cow or horse and crawl inside. Disgusting, but there is a landmark in Franconia Notch that marks the spot that a stranded traveler sacrificed his horse for a winter survival. Funny how reality can turn disgusting into inviting. I've often thought of that in other contexts but I digress ...

If all other factors were equal I guess the "specific heat" of rock vs. wood might suggest one over the other but I would think that other factors would dominate the choice. I would seek the shelter which 1) best protected against the wind and likely shifts over the hunker down period, 2) afforded the most likely success in building and sustaining a fire (to get/keep dry and warm and, if incapacitated, help locate me in a rescue), and 3) has the nicest view ... ok ... I give up on the view if necessary. I would also seek the shelter that either provided protection from as many sides as possible or lends itself to augmenting the shelter, say with branches.

From these criteria I think a large downed tree might be my choice. You have the root ball and the tree trunk as two sides of a shelter with branches and firewood perhaps immediately available. Remember, that it is highly likely that the inviting root side of the tree may actually be on the windward side.

 

[John H Swanson]

Priorities for heat loss, not comfort
assuming you sit or lay on your pack
IMHO

first - dry
second - protection from the wind
third - size (less air to warm up)
fourth - location to avoid cold air pooling
fifth - conductive material - mostly becasue you're on your pack.

so, dry snow shelters are good because you can determine the shape and the wind block is good.

otherwise, fullest enclosure and local position

 

[timmus]

From these criteria I think a large downed tree might be my choice. You have the root ball and the tree trunk as two sides of a shelter with branches and firewood perhaps immediately available.

Someone told me once that in winter, bears tend to choose the downed trees too. Does anyone know more about that ?

 

[giggy]

how about this view??? - ala joe simpson/ touching the void style - just keep going - how about beck weathers and others - these guys have more skill, but they ar still human like us!!

normally I would say injuries keep ya down - but these guy had some rough injuries and kept going and were more remote than the northeast mts for sure - the will to live and keep going probably saved these guys more than anything - expending energy keeps you warm -

how about the story of the mentally challenged guy who ended up in the crevasse on rainier - his "normal" partner gave up and froze while the retarded (not sure the exact condition he had) guy simply walked back and forth all night to keep warm - and it worked.

I would like to think that skill, condition and good plans have keep me from an unplanned night out - but in reality, it probably more luck than anything - I travel light and don't take sleeping bags on day trips, no tent, etc.. I like to think I carefully "roll the dice".
I have thought about it and would like to think I would not hunker down unless really had too - I would keep going and a map and compass would put you in the right direction to road/town etc..


my biggest motivation would be to save myself so I don't have to get ripped to shreds on boards like this after the fact.

 

[Chip]

Someone told me once that in winter, bears tend to choose the downed trees too. Does anyone know more about that ?

You're more likely to disturb/displace smaller critters like mice, but Pete says you can pull the whiskers out of a snoozing bear, so if you do find one - cuddle up !
Bear are more likely to choose a downed tree or a brushpile than a cave.

 

[sli74]

I have thought about it and would like to think I would not hunker down unless really had too - I would keep going and a map and compass would put you in the right direction to road/town etc..

I think this might work fine if one had enough juice in his/her headlamp and body and knew where they were or atleast had a clue to where they were. But let's say the person is so lost they do not know which way is which and there is someone who will realize they are overdue and call for help then it might just be safer to atleast hunker down when there is no daylight to help with navigation? I usually carry a sleeping bag in winter and so I would probably atleast hunker down for the night and keep moving during the day. The more exhausted one gets the less well one thinks . . . Just a thought . . . Good point about Simpson and Weathers, etc though

sli74

 

[Stan]

Someone told me once that in winter, bears tend to choose the downed trees too. Does anyone know more about that ?

Maybe they had a VFTT analysis of this too, back in their DNA development ... besides ... possibility of, shall we say, a grub stake when you're hungry!

 

[sierra]

2 points about the guy who cut open his horse in Franconia notch to survive. First his name was Boise (sp) and the carcuss did save his life but he had to be cut out of it as it froze over night.

 

[sleeping bear]

When there's actually snow on the ground, and depending on where I'm going, how far etc. etc. I sometimes carry a small shovel in my pack. It can serve many purposes, the biggest of which being that I could dig/build an emergency shelter with it. With a candle inside to help with the temp (temp rises an ave of 10 degrees per candle) and also with the emotional benefit of the light, it could certainly be worse.

For example, you could be inside of a frozen moose!

 

[Lawn Sale]

Pete says you can pull the whiskers out of a snoozing bear, so if you do find one - cuddle up !

You could always cut open the bear and crawl inside...couldn't resist!

I also carry a 15° down bag in the winter, along with a Bivy and down jacket, it fits inside a Sea-to-Summit medium compression sack and is worth my peace of mind to carry. I also carry a freeze dried meal and usually my stove, so I know I'd be OK for a night.

If the headlight failed (I always have a spare, sometimes 2 spares), there was no moonlight to continue, or the weather turned bad, I'd definitely camp, but it would be a last resort and the location would depend on the terrain. I'd definitely build a fire though, so whichever had the best reflecting properties and protection from the elements would be my choice.

 

[Periwinkle]

So my questions are... which of the two would be warmer? Is it safe to assume the rock is coldest of all?

I thought I had read somewhere that a rock wall makes a good emergency shelter because the heat from a fire would be reflected. I wish I could find the reference, but all my books are still packed.

Either way, I also note potential shelter points en route should everything go south. I'm all for the "Weathers/Simpson" choice, but if my batteries failed or I just couldn't safely continue on, I'd hope to find good bivy shelter on my expected route.

 

[Chip]

Something like this;

Between 2 reflective surfaces with a fire is too much to ask for, in my mind.
I don't plan on having the time, energy and ability to construct anything.
I assume I'll be injured or exhausted and completely exposed with nothing to hide under, near or to tie off to. I carry a light tarp that could be supported by my poles and anchored with rocks.
I also carry a mummy bag VBL and a MRE (don't need to cook or re-hydrate).
It also depends on when and where you'll be looked for, staying put near a trail is better than falling off a cliff somewhere.

 

[dug]

Not sure if anyone ever watches "Survivorman", but he sampled both of these methods in the "Boreal Forest" episode I watched last evening.

The first night, he built a fire about 4-5' from a rock. The heat reflected against the rock. Another night he did the same against a downed tree with it's upturned root-base.

I think a rock base would be colder, but if you could get a fire started it would actually be warmer as the rocks heat up.

I, too, notice little spots here and there and try to remember them should something happen. I'd probably forget about them when the time came, but when you are alone in the woods something has to occupy your thoughts.

 

[--M.]

Fires and Snow

It can be a wake-up call for someone the first time they try to build a fire in an environment with a foot or more of snow on the ground. I would bet that a lot of scenarios play out in reality with fire playing no significant role.

 

[dug]

It can be a wake-up call for someone the first time they try to build a fire in an environment with a foot or more of snow on the ground.

So true. Find that out the hard way!!!!

 

[grasshopper]

I choose rock as I have actually done this.A small twig fire up against a rock face with a snow wall behind and reflective space blanket overhead will make a very nice emergecy shelter.I spent three nights out at -37,-25 and -20 and was just fine.please practice before you need.For years we always played I must start fire with one match or I die and one time this saved us from a very hard time when my stove broke and we had no water.I've watched many gringo's sit around a 5 foot deep smoking hole in front of an unprotected leanto (When fire was ok in high peaks central area )while I was warm and dug in 5 foot up against a nice cliff or rock with a very small low impact easy to sustain fire.
just then the wind came squalling through the door, but who can the weather comand? (GD)

 

[spider solo]

I usually am thinking in terms of not having a fire...but I have never given much thought to a small twig fire for warmth as a possibility. It's an interesting idea and I know there is a psychological boost from getting a fire going.

As mentioned bears do use brush and dead fall for denning and I've wondered if that is because it is warmer of the two choices...perhaps as they get snowed in the brush helps the snow 'roof over' and their body is heating a smaller space.
I know when looking for a spot to bivy over night to keep in mind that the place with little snow is often wind swept and thus a poor though tempting spot.

...But I'm wondering with two proteced spots near each other, is the ground the warmer choice from radiant heat?...or the place with snow beneath you for it's insulating or reflective heat?

I have crawled under the over hanging branches of a conifer for protection from a snow storm but it was a planned overnight... though the snowstorm itself was unexpected.

For these questions I'm thinking in terms of an unplaned bivy where you are going to tough it out for the night yet you want the peace of mind that
your making your best choice under the circumstances. So half way through the night you don't stumble over to the rock and actually make your circumstances worse or vice versa.

...though if it is a rock I could finally have the answer when people ask me "what the hell rock did you crawl out from under....??"

 

[AdkWiley]

You're more likely to disturb/displace smaller critters like mice, but Pete says you can pull the whiskers out of a snoozing bear, so if you do find one - cuddle up !
Bear are more likely to choose a downed tree or a brushpile than a cave.

haha I think id stay away from teh sleeping bear! They arnt true hibernatiors, so they dont slow they're whole system down, into an almost comatose state like beaver wood chucks, etc. You can shake a wood chuck and he'll stay snoozin cuase it will take him so long to regualtre his boy temps back up and what not. A bear doesnt drop his body temp or heart rate much so the'll be a littel groggy , but they come around faster than yad think! My wildlife management teacher actaulyl told me shes foudn bears jsut sleeping out in the woods with no den. Just piled under snow. Wouldn't that be a heart stopper! Imagine your just snow showin aroudn and hop up on a hummock which is actually a bear!