Let's not forget that the AMC 4000-Footer Committee, who oversees the "rules" and granting patches & scrolls of the NH48, NE67, and NE100 lists, is somewhat autonomous from the AMC: you needn't be an AMC member to complete a list, file an application, and get a patch & scroll.
Hiking from the summit of Washington....
- Thread starter grouseking
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So what you are saying then is you can be a badge collector with out agreeing to the overall AMC Philosophies? So very inclusive and yet exclusive. Then we all play the game of peakbagging by our on rules therefore? So why then grab your patch with out being totally part of the club? I have personallay been a member of the AMC for years and have done my 4's times over without having ever found the need to have a patch. It goes both ways IMO.
Hi Phil, I'm sure you've googled it by now, but just in case you haven't, here is some good info.
The rules are pretty reasonable. No bikes, 200 foot ridge drop, no auto roads, etc. Gotta draw lines somewhere...these seem decent enough.
The rules are pretty reasonable. No bikes, 200 foot ridge drop, no auto roads, etc. Gotta draw lines somewhere...these seem decent enough.
Raymond
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Roy, I was just going by a comment I read, probably on this website, by either Dennis C. or John S., that they sometimes rode bicycles to reach peaks, to save some walking. Also, Spencer M., in his ‘‘The Other 54,’’ wrote about how he and some others took a hayride to knock off some mileage when they climbed Little Santanoni. And I remember reading several years ago that Tim D./Mavs00 and some others were driven in cars across the East River Club’s roads when they climbed Cheney Cobble and Rist Mountain. It seemed like cheating to me, but I’m pretty sure that Tim told me (I couldn’t locate the thread) that there were no rules governing how the peaks were climbed, so it was all right. I don’t want to put words in his mouth, but that’s how I remember it.
I wasn’t aware of anyone recognizing New England 3K completion, other than their names be posted here occasionally. If there are official rules, they should be posted before someone makes a time-wasting mistake. Erik Schlimmer wrote here years ago that, in his opinion, using a GPS was cheating, but if that’s an official rule, there are going to be a lot of unhappy hikers here, and a lot of do-overs!
Regarding Colorado’s Mount Bierstadt, is there even an organization out there in charge of setting rules for the climbing of the peaks? I didn’t think there was (is there a 14ers patch, either?), or that the 3000-foot rule was used by everyone, but I haven’t really been there. Didn’t Mark Obmasik ride a bicycle up Mount Evans? Cave Dog has a rule that challengers of his speed record have to begin each climb or traverse with at least 3000 feet of elevation gain (and end each climb or traverse with 3000 feet of descent), so a descent below the trailhead might be necessary for some of the mountains, but that wouldn’t apply to anyone who wasn’t trying to do them all in less than 10 days, 20 hours, and 26 minutes, as I understand it. Heck, there isn’t even agreement on the number of 14ers.
I wasn’t aware of anyone recognizing New England 3K completion, other than their names be posted here occasionally. If there are official rules, they should be posted before someone makes a time-wasting mistake. Erik Schlimmer wrote here years ago that, in his opinion, using a GPS was cheating, but if that’s an official rule, there are going to be a lot of unhappy hikers here, and a lot of do-overs!
Regarding Colorado’s Mount Bierstadt, is there even an organization out there in charge of setting rules for the climbing of the peaks? I didn’t think there was (is there a 14ers patch, either?), or that the 3000-foot rule was used by everyone, but I haven’t really been there. Didn’t Mark Obmasik ride a bicycle up Mount Evans? Cave Dog has a rule that challengers of his speed record have to begin each climb or traverse with at least 3000 feet of elevation gain (and end each climb or traverse with 3000 feet of descent), so a descent below the trailhead might be necessary for some of the mountains, but that wouldn’t apply to anyone who wasn’t trying to do them all in less than 10 days, 20 hours, and 26 minutes, as I understand it. Heck, there isn’t even agreement on the number of 14ers.
Not any different then many other walks of life.
- If you are a catholic, do you practice 100% of the church's teachings? (Most do not)
- If you are a (democrat | republican | libertarian | ...), do you agree with and espouse 100% of the party's positions?
- ...
I personally don't feel any duty to agree with (any or all of) the AMC's philosophies simply to get a patch, nor do I feel that anyone else in the same position is a hypocrite.
The stated mission is:
The Four Thousand Footer Club was formed in 1957 to introduce hikers to some of the less well-known sections of the White Mountains of New Hampshire. At that time, such peaks as Hancock, Owl's Head and West Bond were trailless and practically never climbed. The problem of overuse was unknown, except in the Presidentials and Franconias. Today the Club is composed of actve hikers whose travels in the mountains have made us familiar with many different areas of the White Mountain backcountry, and with the problems that threaten to degrade the mountain experience that we have all been privileged to enjoy. We hope that this experience will encourage our members to work for the preservation and wise use of wild country, so that it may be enjoyed and passed on to future generations undiminished.
This mission is in line with (my understanding of) the overall AMC philosophy, and is probably in line with the beliefs many of the "patch collectors". If nothing else, it exposes said "patch collectors" to wilderness ethics in an attempt to get them to work for and support wilderness and backcountry recreation in a responsible manner. It is also some people's first exposure to and a recruitment mechanism for the AMC.
I have the WM4 and WM4 in Winter patches on my pack and I am working towards the NEHH. I am not an AMC member, but I did make an extra donation for trail maintenance when I got my patches. I didn't use any auto roads, nor did I travel by bicycle except where I could have traveled by car (car spots). I did my best to reach the officially described summits, and when I knew or could reasonably find a higher point, I went there as well. It's entirely for fun.
Tim
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TJ aka Teej
Member
I was told 30 years ago on my first AT hike that the route I took across the Presidentials "didn't count" toward the 2000 miler patch because I went over peaks instead of following the white blazes around them. So, even with 6000 AT miles under my boots, I'll never earn that darned patch. If I really wanted it, I'd follow the "rules".
This thread reminds me of a hundred campfires where the conversation turned to purists, blue-blazers, slackers, section hiking, "cheaters", and the actual value of the patch and rocker. If I told you all that went down, it would burn off both your ears.
It is good to know the rules if your goal is to follow them. But in the end, we all hike our own hikes, and the value of our experiences matter most to ourselves.
This thread reminds me of a hundred campfires where the conversation turned to purists, blue-blazers, slackers, section hiking, "cheaters", and the actual value of the patch and rocker. If I told you all that went down, it would burn off both your ears.
It is good to know the rules if your goal is to follow them. But in the end, we all hike our own hikes, and the value of our experiences matter most to ourselves.
JimC
Member
NEng 3ks don't need no stinking' rules!
The folks doing the list know the rules.
There is recognition for Finishers. The folks doing the list know.
All else is noise.
The folks doing the list know the rules.
There is recognition for Finishers. The folks doing the list know.
All else is noise.
A reasonble analogy IMO and I agree with somewhat but not totally. Some of us are Buddist,Independents and live in New Hampshire
Mike P.
Well-known member
I skimmed the first two pages & skipped so if I'm repeating, sorry.
It would count as a State Highpointer, their only requirement is standing on the top.
One of my Washington trips was done in November where there was just a couple of inches of snow & some ice. Went up Lion's Head where we came across a guy who thought he had broken a bone above his boot but was limping down & a guy who tweaked his knee. It took us longer to get up then we thought & at 2:30 upon reaching the summit, opted to walk down the
road to the old Jackson Road & back to PNVC.
While significantly longer walking the road, the weather was fair for mid-November, upper 20's up high, wind in the 15-25 MPH range & we were prepared to spend more time in those conditions walking at a regular gait with lights then we were to pick our way down a rocky slick Lion's head with headlights.
For skiing the road, besides the drifting & scouring that may occur on the road, the amount above treeline in possible brutal conditions makes it less attractive then skiing the Whiteface highway (which has some expsoure but not as long) or roads up Equinox or Greylock, another popular ski trip.
It would count as a State Highpointer, their only requirement is standing on the top.
One of my Washington trips was done in November where there was just a couple of inches of snow & some ice. Went up Lion's Head where we came across a guy who thought he had broken a bone above his boot but was limping down & a guy who tweaked his knee. It took us longer to get up then we thought & at 2:30 upon reaching the summit, opted to walk down the
road to the old Jackson Road & back to PNVC.
While significantly longer walking the road, the weather was fair for mid-November, upper 20's up high, wind in the 15-25 MPH range & we were prepared to spend more time in those conditions walking at a regular gait with lights then we were to pick our way down a rocky slick Lion's head with headlights.
For skiing the road, besides the drifting & scouring that may occur on the road, the amount above treeline in possible brutal conditions makes it less attractive then skiing the Whiteface highway (which has some expsoure but not as long) or roads up Equinox or Greylock, another popular ski trip.
Raymond
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Jim, perhaps you would be so kind as to send me the rules. I thought I’d climbed about 222 of the Northeast Threes, but maybe I haven’t.
I hope I don’t have to be accompanied by someone for a peak to count, because on about half of them, I haven’t been.
I received the list of peaks from Bill Bowden, and that’s all I’ve had to go by. I didn’t realize it was a team sport.
I hope I don’t have to be accompanied by someone for a peak to count, because on about half of them, I haven’t been.
I received the list of peaks from Bill Bowden, and that’s all I’ve had to go by. I didn’t realize it was a team sport.
freighttrain48
New member
A reasonble analogy IMO and I agree with somewhat but not totally. Some of us are Buddist,Independents and live in New Hampshire
looking at you avitar I am going to guess you are a buddist
JimC
Member
No Rules Rules
C'mon Raymond, give me a break.
At 222, you have done well.
Peaks are eligible by meeting the elevation and prominence criteria. Endless debates ensue over the inclusion and exclusion of certain peaks but most of the NEng 3k List has been agreed upon. In the absence of agreement, you would likely not be exiled by those doing the list. Those doing the list are usually well known to each other because who else does this stuff.
Generally, 451 or 453 will be a good number but I have seen 449. The list is dynamic and does change. Leave No Stragglers!
How you do the peaks you have chosen for your list? I don't care. Does anyone out there care? I hope not because there are too many rules out there. Remember, the NEng 3ks don't need no stinking' rules.
Jim
C'mon Raymond, give me a break.
At 222, you have done well.
Peaks are eligible by meeting the elevation and prominence criteria. Endless debates ensue over the inclusion and exclusion of certain peaks but most of the NEng 3k List has been agreed upon. In the absence of agreement, you would likely not be exiled by those doing the list. Those doing the list are usually well known to each other because who else does this stuff.
Generally, 451 or 453 will be a good number but I have seen 449. The list is dynamic and does change. Leave No Stragglers!
How you do the peaks you have chosen for your list? I don't care. Does anyone out there care? I hope not because there are too many rules out there. Remember, the NEng 3ks don't need no stinking' rules.
Jim
RoySwkr
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The way you phrased your first post sounded more like "the rules allow..." than "there are no rules so you may do it." Would hikers object if somebody started riding ATVs or using helicopters - probably.
Somebody maintains a list of 3k completers and somebody sells patches, but I'm not sure who.
RoySwkr
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To apply for the patch you should (imho) climb their list of peaks by their rules, just as if you play cards or sports you should abide by the rules. You may feel it stupid to need 4 balls but get only 3 strikes but them's the rules. So don't worry if S Hancock shouldn't be on the list while The Nose should, or that you can't ride a bike on a gated paved road, just do it if you want the patch. And your application only asks for dates climbed, not your opinion on Wilderness or Northern Pass.
RoySwkr
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I disagree with all 3 of the above
JimC
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Shocking. Just shocking.
Raymond
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Sorry I wasn’t clear earlier.
I should have originally said that ‘‘as far as I know bicycles are permitted ...’’, but I didn’t, because I thought it was clear that I was basing that statement on my memory of what some finishers of some lists had written that they had done. In other words, if they had, say, ridden a bicycle beyond the point where their car was parked, then I didn’t think there would be any authority punishing them for doing so.
And if there is some overseeing authority, then the regulations should be made public. The only rule that I am aware of otherwise is, Do not post The List on the Internet.
Jim’s comments made me wonder if it was a secret society: ‘‘The only rule in peakbagging the Northeast 3000-footers is that you don’t talk about peakbagging the Northeast 3000-footers.’’
I received the list about five years ago when I wrote to Bill Bowden after he mentioned that he had patches for those who had climbed the New Hampshire Hundred Highest. I’m not very much farther along on that list, either. Which is also highly unofficial, as far as I can tell.
I should have originally said that ‘‘as far as I know bicycles are permitted ...’’, but I didn’t, because I thought it was clear that I was basing that statement on my memory of what some finishers of some lists had written that they had done. In other words, if they had, say, ridden a bicycle beyond the point where their car was parked, then I didn’t think there would be any authority punishing them for doing so.
And if there is some overseeing authority, then the regulations should be made public. The only rule that I am aware of otherwise is, Do not post The List on the Internet.
Jim’s comments made me wonder if it was a secret society: ‘‘The only rule in peakbagging the Northeast 3000-footers is that you don’t talk about peakbagging the Northeast 3000-footers.’’
I received the list about five years ago when I wrote to Bill Bowden after he mentioned that he had patches for those who had climbed the New Hampshire Hundred Highest. I’m not very much farther along on that list, either. Which is also highly unofficial, as far as I can tell.
sierra
Well-known member
Really? Im a long standing member of the 4000 fter club, yet have never been an AMC member. Why? I love doing the 4k's and love the patch, why not a member? never saw the need. Although I like some of thier facilities, Pinkhams and yes now the highland center( although not for lodging).
Yes really....like I posted...it goes both ways. I never saw the need for a patch!
