Leash Law in the Adirondacks.
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Jake first mentioned whacking the dog, I quietly sat on the sidelines until that. THEN, I jumped in.
As for the sniffing, since the dog would be right next to me (or more likely behind me), yes, I would be OK. She would be sniffing you from between my legs. Wait...am I on the wrong board? This sounds like something I wrote in one of those "other" boards.......
Jake first mentioned whacking the dog, I quietly sat on the sidelines until that. THEN, I jumped in.
As for the sniffing, since the dog would be right next to me (or more likely behind me), yes, I would be OK. She would be sniffing you from between my legs. Wait...am I on the wrong board? This sounds like something I wrote in one of those "other" boards.......
Peakbagr
Well-known member
dug,
Your reactions are one of the reasons why there is a leash law in some areas of the High Peaks....
What appears to you aggressive behavior towards your pet may be defensive actions by someone who feels threatened or thinks your dog may be coming at them. If the unleashed dog is not there in the first place, the dog doesn't get hurt, the hiker doesn't get hurt, and you don't risk a felony arrest for assaulting a human being for defending himself when he thinks he or a loved one is in jeopardy.
I have been a hike leader for 25 yrs. In that time, I've seen every sort of bad behavior and manners imaginable, some of them by dogs, and their owners. Over all those miles, I'm still waiting to see a good reason for letting unleashed dogs run all over trails and summits. I'm a person who has had dogs all his life and am not against having a fun day in the woods with Fido. There are thousands of miles of trails with nary a hiker. Given your comments, it would probably be best for you (and us) if you sought out some solitude.
Your reactions are one of the reasons why there is a leash law in some areas of the High Peaks....
What appears to you aggressive behavior towards your pet may be defensive actions by someone who feels threatened or thinks your dog may be coming at them. If the unleashed dog is not there in the first place, the dog doesn't get hurt, the hiker doesn't get hurt, and you don't risk a felony arrest for assaulting a human being for defending himself when he thinks he or a loved one is in jeopardy.
I have been a hike leader for 25 yrs. In that time, I've seen every sort of bad behavior and manners imaginable, some of them by dogs, and their owners. Over all those miles, I'm still waiting to see a good reason for letting unleashed dogs run all over trails and summits. I'm a person who has had dogs all his life and am not against having a fun day in the woods with Fido. There are thousands of miles of trails with nary a hiker. Given your comments, it would probably be best for you (and us) if you sought out some solitude.
What constitutes a threat.
When my 22lb terrier, on a leash, being restrained by my side is being pinned to the ground or mauled by a snarling, barking, 40, 50...lb, lab, shephard, retriever, take your pick... and the idiot owner is 20 yards away, standing there going "stop Fido-come here" and nothings happening, that's threatening behavior.
Clear enough?
When my 22lb terrier, on a leash, being restrained by my side is being pinned to the ground or mauled by a snarling, barking, 40, 50...lb, lab, shephard, retriever, take your pick... and the idiot owner is 20 yards away, standing there going "stop Fido-come here" and nothings happening, that's threatening behavior.
Clear enough?
Grumpy
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There being evident interest in going on . . .
One of the great advantages that I’ve discovered in keeping my dog on a leash while hiking is that it gives me complete, absolute and perfect justification for hissing “BUZZ OFF!” back at the self-appointed critics who want to lecture me about the evil of dogs in the boonies . . . and whom I inevitably meet somewhere along the line.
It can be very rewarding, at times, to stand on the right side of an issue.
Smugly yours,
G.
One of the great advantages that I’ve discovered in keeping my dog on a leash while hiking is that it gives me complete, absolute and perfect justification for hissing “BUZZ OFF!” back at the self-appointed critics who want to lecture me about the evil of dogs in the boonies . . . and whom I inevitably meet somewhere along the line.
It can be very rewarding, at times, to stand on the right side of an issue.
Smugly yours,
G.
Maddy
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Re: There being evident interest in going on . . .
Grumpy said:One of the great advantages that I’ve discovered in keeping my dog on a leash while hiking is that it gives me complete, absolute and perfect justification for hissing “BUZZ OFF!” back at the self-appointed critics who want to lecture me about the evil of dogs in the boonies..."
Excellent point!
I have hiked for years with my dogs. I am very protective of them and always will be. For this reason I leash them.
In my younger years I used to firmly believe that dogs had a "right" to be running free in the woods. Live and learn, the hard way. Many folks are terrified of dogs and think that every dog they meet is a potential killer. Perhaps they have been bitten in the past. Others are trying to protect their offspring.
I knew that my dogs would not hurt anyone but they did not. My previous dogs were mongrels/ about 45 lbs. They got themselves into a little trouble so I learned my lesson. I also do not trust children I do not know around dogs. Some of them can be downright nasty and hurtful.
I now hike with my 100lb Akita on a leash. She is very highly trained and obeys all her commands but I will not take that chance. We have encountered many very large breed dogs off leash (Rotties and Pit Bulls). I have aborted hikes and moved on to a different less populated location. I don't want any trouble and go out of my way to avoid it.
I also feel very safe hiking with my dog and if I am camping alone I keep her tethered to me on a special leash. I often think of that unfortunate 50 year old female hiker who was stabbed to death on the Glen Boulder trail just a few short years ago. Perhaps if she had a nice big dog with her she would still be hiking. I have met a few unsavory characters hiking over the years. Why take a chance!!!!
Maddy
Peakbagr
Well-known member
I wouldn't take my son's Staffordshire Terrier off leash on a trail.
While a gentle sort, she is 70 lbs of muscle and would terrify most hikers if she came bounding up the trail to say hello. The consequences of another canine, regardless of size going after her would be too terrible to contemplate.
She would just love to romp along a trail, unfettered all day. Out of consideration for others and their pets, she stays on a retractor leash, and on trails with few hikers.
While a gentle sort, she is 70 lbs of muscle and would terrify most hikers if she came bounding up the trail to say hello. The consequences of another canine, regardless of size going after her would be too terrible to contemplate.
She would just love to romp along a trail, unfettered all day. Out of consideration for others and their pets, she stays on a retractor leash, and on trails with few hikers.
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shadowcat
New member
gone to the dogs
as a female hiker i would love to have a nice big dog to accompany me and give me an "edge" of protection & help me at least feel safer being out there alone. i love animals and i can certainly see why people like to take their dogs out with them. lets forget for a minute there are any laws out there at all. for many reasons it just seems to me that having your dog on a leash just makes sense for so many reasons; as mentioned over and over again on this thread. it's not like they need to be off-leash to let them get some exercise, like when you take them to a park. they are hiking and that in itself is good exercise. and some of the hikes are dangerous, rocky etc. i've seen folks with dogs on & off leashes on climbs that were hard for me to get up and over much less the dogs - i could go on and on but it always boils down to the same thing. doing what's right for EVERYONE & quit being a bunch of "i want this & i want that" crybabies. Besides, the heck with dogs - cats are better. Several of mine are leash trained and could use a good hike - and best of all - they bury their own poop!
as a female hiker i would love to have a nice big dog to accompany me and give me an "edge" of protection & help me at least feel safer being out there alone. i love animals and i can certainly see why people like to take their dogs out with them. lets forget for a minute there are any laws out there at all. for many reasons it just seems to me that having your dog on a leash just makes sense for so many reasons; as mentioned over and over again on this thread. it's not like they need to be off-leash to let them get some exercise, like when you take them to a park. they are hiking and that in itself is good exercise. and some of the hikes are dangerous, rocky etc. i've seen folks with dogs on & off leashes on climbs that were hard for me to get up and over much less the dogs - i could go on and on but it always boils down to the same thing. doing what's right for EVERYONE & quit being a bunch of "i want this & i want that" crybabies. Besides, the heck with dogs - cats are better. Several of mine are leash trained and could use a good hike - and best of all - they bury their own poop!
rondak46
New member
Hiking is, for me,...
... is a quiet discipling. I don't chat much when hiking with someone. I also pay close attention to my breathing. Dogs really break all that up if they are not on a leash.
Iguessyoucouldcallitabuzzkill
Mike
... is a quiet discipling. I don't chat much when hiking with someone. I also pay close attention to my breathing. Dogs really break all that up if they are not on a leash.
Iguessyoucouldcallitabuzzkill
Mike
What does constiture a threat?
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest as like many out there, this topic is very important to myself as well.
A few people have talked about being threatened by other dogs, what constitutes a threat. I've got a 38 lb border collie that barks every time she encounters someone new on the trail. She's got a nasty sounding bark but knowing my dog, I know it's her way of saying hello. And believe me, we've tried everything to stop the barking, even the shock collar, and it just doesn't work.
I used to be adament about my dog having the right to come hiking with me and being off-leash. In the last year or so, I've taken the opposite route and realized that for others who are threatened, it's not that much of pain to have her clipped on to my hip belt. I now have her on leash all of the time unless I'm off trail.
My big issue however is that non dog lovers, or the people who are afraid of dogs, in my opinion would educate themselves a little more on dog behaviour. I'm sure more people on the hiking trails have read about bears than dogs, but I'm also sure those people meet a hell of a lot more dogs that they meet bears.
And for the people who won't leash their dogs, you should maybe think long term to try to avoid a situation like Quebec, their parks allow 4wheelers, snowmobiles, but not one of the provincial parks in Quebec (and there something like 25 of them) allow dogs, on or off leash. To me, that sounds threatning!
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest as like many out there, this topic is very important to myself as well.
A few people have talked about being threatened by other dogs, what constitutes a threat. I've got a 38 lb border collie that barks every time she encounters someone new on the trail. She's got a nasty sounding bark but knowing my dog, I know it's her way of saying hello. And believe me, we've tried everything to stop the barking, even the shock collar, and it just doesn't work.
I used to be adament about my dog having the right to come hiking with me and being off-leash. In the last year or so, I've taken the opposite route and realized that for others who are threatened, it's not that much of pain to have her clipped on to my hip belt. I now have her on leash all of the time unless I'm off trail.
My big issue however is that non dog lovers, or the people who are afraid of dogs, in my opinion would educate themselves a little more on dog behaviour. I'm sure more people on the hiking trails have read about bears than dogs, but I'm also sure those people meet a hell of a lot more dogs that they meet bears.
And for the people who won't leash their dogs, you should maybe think long term to try to avoid a situation like Quebec, their parks allow 4wheelers, snowmobiles, but not one of the provincial parks in Quebec (and there something like 25 of them) allow dogs, on or off leash. To me, that sounds threatning!
rondak46
New member
Thinking Ahead.....
Very good point. A good analogy is the smoking ban in NY. If bar owners had been proactive, and installed air cleaners, and made more prctical accomodations for smokers and non-smokers, there probably would'nt be the strict ban that there is now.
Mike
Very good point. A good analogy is the smoking ban in NY. If bar owners had been proactive, and installed air cleaners, and made more prctical accomodations for smokers and non-smokers, there probably would'nt be the strict ban that there is now.
Mike
keb
New member
wow, I am not sure what I am getting into here, but I need to say something. Adi, do you really mean to say......
"My big issue however is that non dog lovers, or the people who are afraid of dogs, in my opinion would educate themselves a little more on dog behaviour."
Please think about that statement. I am a dog lover and I can't even believe that you could say that. No one can be educated enough to know the intentions of a large animal running at them (ok, well maybe a big lab or golden wagging it's tail madly) but otherwise.....and you even reference people "afraid of dogs." That is not necessarily a completely rational fear, but it is fear all the same and cannot be "educated" away. Much like someone who has been mugged (or worse) in the dark is fearful of the dark, someone who has been bitten or scared by a dog, will be fearful of a dog, any dog, unleashed, running at them. It is a fact, and no "education" will change that.
"My big issue however is that non dog lovers, or the people who are afraid of dogs, in my opinion would educate themselves a little more on dog behaviour."
Please think about that statement. I am a dog lover and I can't even believe that you could say that. No one can be educated enough to know the intentions of a large animal running at them (ok, well maybe a big lab or golden wagging it's tail madly) but otherwise.....and you even reference people "afraid of dogs." That is not necessarily a completely rational fear, but it is fear all the same and cannot be "educated" away. Much like someone who has been mugged (or worse) in the dark is fearful of the dark, someone who has been bitten or scared by a dog, will be fearful of a dog, any dog, unleashed, running at them. It is a fact, and no "education" will change that.
rondak46
New member
My favorite....
.... Is when a dog owner tells you that YOU upset the dog by looking it in the eyes! Sorry, but if your dog is off leash, and approaching me, I'll be staring it down; If it does not like that well...... nuff said.
Mike
.... Is when a dog owner tells you that YOU upset the dog by looking it in the eyes! Sorry, but if your dog is off leash, and approaching me, I'll be staring it down; If it does not like that well...... nuff said.
Mike
Mark
Member
Adi,
You sound like you have learned that your barking dog may be taken as a threat to some on the trail (even if she isn’t) and now keep her on a leash. Even if she was just showing off her "happy" bark, having her on leash will come across as less of a threat to others on the trail.
Regarding your big issue, what would you have hikers learn about dog behavior? Do you want hikers to become educated on reading a dog’s body language? A dog growling and showing its teeth is not always threatening and a dog wagging tail and bouncing around is not always friendly. The Mastif that bit me showed absolutely no signs of aggression. He didn’t take an attack posture. He wasn't growling or even looking at me. He just walked by me as I stood off the side of the trail and turned and bit me as he passed. He was off leash and his owner was no where in the vicinity.
So what I learned about dog behavior is you never know for sure when a dog will attack. This doesn’t mean I assume every dog is an imminent threat now, but they are a potential threat. I will remain cautious about every encounter. I don’t do anything threatening to the dog and don’t even look them in the eyes. I will be ready to defend myself if necessary. If I am hiking with my young children, that level of caution and preparedness jumps tenfold.
Before everyone jumps of me for being a dog hater, I’m not. I don’t have any problem with well behaved dogs on the trail. I’ve hiked with dogs in the Whites in the past and had a great time. I’m sure your dog would never do what the Mastif did. However, I now really understand the origin of the saying, “Once bitten, twice shy.”
You sound like you have learned that your barking dog may be taken as a threat to some on the trail (even if she isn’t) and now keep her on a leash. Even if she was just showing off her "happy" bark, having her on leash will come across as less of a threat to others on the trail.
Regarding your big issue, what would you have hikers learn about dog behavior? Do you want hikers to become educated on reading a dog’s body language? A dog growling and showing its teeth is not always threatening and a dog wagging tail and bouncing around is not always friendly. The Mastif that bit me showed absolutely no signs of aggression. He didn’t take an attack posture. He wasn't growling or even looking at me. He just walked by me as I stood off the side of the trail and turned and bit me as he passed. He was off leash and his owner was no where in the vicinity.
So what I learned about dog behavior is you never know for sure when a dog will attack. This doesn’t mean I assume every dog is an imminent threat now, but they are a potential threat. I will remain cautious about every encounter. I don’t do anything threatening to the dog and don’t even look them in the eyes. I will be ready to defend myself if necessary. If I am hiking with my young children, that level of caution and preparedness jumps tenfold.
Before everyone jumps of me for being a dog hater, I’m not. I don’t have any problem with well behaved dogs on the trail. I’ve hiked with dogs in the Whites in the past and had a great time. I’m sure your dog would never do what the Mastif did. However, I now really understand the origin of the saying, “Once bitten, twice shy.”
Mark
Member
My favorite...
After getting snapped at by a dog, the owner chose to forego an apology and offer instead, "He doesn't like your hiking poles."
(I just want to go for a quiet hike!)
After getting snapped at by a dog, the owner chose to forego an apology and offer instead, "He doesn't like your hiking poles."
(I just want to go for a quiet hike!)
Good points
With regards to all the posts following mine, this is why it's a good thing this thread was not removed.
Keb, I understand a fear is a fear and I think you are right that education will probably not change that.
Rondak, I would never blame someone else for making my dog bark at him/her.
Rondak and Mark, my dog will bark at you if it sees you on trail, and it will most likely be on leash, I hope everyone reading this thread understands that a bark is not necessarily a sign of aggression and Mark I apologize:
"(I just want to go for a quiet hike!)"
It'll get quiet again 10 seconds after we pass on the trail. I definitely understand wanting peace and quiet while trying to enjoy nature.
With regards to all the posts following mine, this is why it's a good thing this thread was not removed.
Keb, I understand a fear is a fear and I think you are right that education will probably not change that.
Rondak, I would never blame someone else for making my dog bark at him/her.
Rondak and Mark, my dog will bark at you if it sees you on trail, and it will most likely be on leash, I hope everyone reading this thread understands that a bark is not necessarily a sign of aggression and Mark I apologize:
"(I just want to go for a quiet hike!)"
It'll get quiet again 10 seconds after we pass on the trail. I definitely understand wanting peace and quiet while trying to enjoy nature.
shadowcat
New member
it's a dog eat dog world
after reading all these threads i have come to the conclusion -
all dogs should be allowed to run free
it's the hikers who should be on leashes!
(just kidding......)
maybe
ps: and cats are still better than dogs.
after reading all these threads i have come to the conclusion -
all dogs should be allowed to run free
it's the hikers who should be on leashes!
(just kidding......)
maybe
ps: and cats are still better than dogs.
Silverback
New member
Wow! This is quite a thread!
I love dogs and they seem to love me, more than most people. I have no fear, but a healthy respect for them, and consider some humans far more dangerous and unpredictable.
That having been said, I believe that leashing one's dog on the trail, or on the street is a simple courtesy, laws, or lack thereof, notwithstanding. As pointed out many times in thread, many people fear these noble animals and, many times, for good reason. But a leash also serves to protect the dogs from the impulsive behavior that they tend to exhibit. How many dogs have been hit by cars, or broke a leg on the trail, or fallen into a bad spot because of their reactive nature to a stimulus?
One thing that has not been mentioned is the fact that an unleashed dog (in fact, even a leashed one), has a disturbing effect on the fauna and flora on the trail, much more than a human does. Chipmunks and squirrels, for example, will, continue to do their dances through the forest around humans, but the presence of a feared predator will send them into hiding. I have encountered deer many times while hiking with humans, but never with my dog. Alpine vegetation, while recognized as fragile and, therefore, avoided, by most experienced hikers is at risk from the trampling of dogs, leashed or unleashed.
My German Shepard is one of the best companions on the trail that I have ever known, but we have quit hiking the backcountry together because of all the reasons I have mentioned. I owe it to my fellow hikers and I owe it to the ecology of the backcountry I so love.
This obviously is a very emotional issue for everyone. These are just my thoughts, no judgment of anyone else intended.
Thanks for the vine.
Oh yeah, and cats are NOT better.
I love dogs and they seem to love me, more than most people. I have no fear, but a healthy respect for them, and consider some humans far more dangerous and unpredictable.
That having been said, I believe that leashing one's dog on the trail, or on the street is a simple courtesy, laws, or lack thereof, notwithstanding. As pointed out many times in thread, many people fear these noble animals and, many times, for good reason. But a leash also serves to protect the dogs from the impulsive behavior that they tend to exhibit. How many dogs have been hit by cars, or broke a leg on the trail, or fallen into a bad spot because of their reactive nature to a stimulus?
One thing that has not been mentioned is the fact that an unleashed dog (in fact, even a leashed one), has a disturbing effect on the fauna and flora on the trail, much more than a human does. Chipmunks and squirrels, for example, will, continue to do their dances through the forest around humans, but the presence of a feared predator will send them into hiding. I have encountered deer many times while hiking with humans, but never with my dog. Alpine vegetation, while recognized as fragile and, therefore, avoided, by most experienced hikers is at risk from the trampling of dogs, leashed or unleashed.
My German Shepard is one of the best companions on the trail that I have ever known, but we have quit hiking the backcountry together because of all the reasons I have mentioned. I owe it to my fellow hikers and I owe it to the ecology of the backcountry I so love.
This obviously is a very emotional issue for everyone. These are just my thoughts, no judgment of anyone else intended.
Thanks for the vine.
Oh yeah, and cats are NOT better.
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truepatriot09
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true, true. cats are no comparison to a dog.
crazymama
New member
I make a special effort to shorten the leash and keep my dog to the opposite side of me whenever I pass close to other people on the trail or on a sidewalk.
I'm sure that there are people out there who appreciate this (dog phobics, people with small children, etc.) and I don't mind doing it.
I'm sure that there are people out there who appreciate this (dog phobics, people with small children, etc.) and I don't mind doing it.
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