lite weights (like Hornbeck)vs kayaks

[Peakbagr]

My wife and I recently sold our 1980's Mad River Explorer. At 17' and 72+ lbs, it was too large to store and its weight led to little use.
She is interested in getting a kayak. For myself, I've been looking at the liteweights like the carbon fiber, 11 lb Hornbeck. Besides hiking, I like to fish and a boat like this combines both features as it can easily be portaged.
What many owners of Hornbecks tell me is that it handles like a kayak.

Any experience here with boats like these vs a kayak?

Thanks

 

[darren]

No experience, but I'd like to know too. I've been interested in gettign a lite weight canoe for a while.

- darren

 

[sleeping bear]

I need some memory refreshing... Hornbeck- is he the guy that paddled the 12 lb canoe (the Sairy Gamp) up the Raquette River? I read "Adirondack Passage" a while ago, but now can't remember what the original guy's name was. Anyway, is that what you're talking about? A carbon fiber version of that? And it weighs 11 lbs??! Wow! Is it Kevlar and carbon fiber?

I used to have a small, but much heavier, boat of similar dimensions. It was meant to have the paddler sit with their butt on the bottom of the canoe and to be paddled with a double blade. I would say it's still more stable than a kayak, but not much. It had about 6 inches of freeboard with me in it, and ANY waves sent me in to shore immediately. The main drawback is that it isn't very versatile.

If you go up a few more steps to a 12 or 13 foot kevlar, like a Wenonah or a Bell, they still only weight about 35 lbs, which is pretty darn light. You can also do a lot more with them.

 

[Jay H]

If you catch the ADK paddlefest run by MountainMan in Inlet/Old Forge, I think both the Hornbecks and the Packboat people are there.

I know the Hornbeck guys were there at the Jersey Paddler Paddlest in Somerset, NJ too in March, Tim (?) was there giving a show on the canoe and it's features.

I've seen a couple of Hornbecks in use in and around NY before but have never been in one.

Jay

 

[Pat T]

Pete Hornbeck has been making canoes and kayaks in the ADKs for more than 30 years. George Washington Sears (known as Nessmuk) was the Adirondack guide who travelled many miles in his boat, the Sairy Gamp, in the late 1800s. Christine Jerome retraced his route using a Hornbeck and wrote the book "Adirondack Passage." The Sairy Gamp was made of wood and the Hornbeck she used was Kevlar. Their dimensions are similar.

I've had a Kevlar Hornbeck for 10 years. It is well-used and well-loved. The first year I had it I took two of my kids (ages 10 and 13) up the Oswegatchie to High Falls. They fought over who got to paddle the Hornbeck. I spent the whole trip in the stern of a Mad River. The kids had a great time in the Hornbeck and really enjoyed shooting through beaver dams on the way down the river. I've had the canoe out on Lake George in pretty heavy winds and chop and she handles beautifully. I wouldn't say it handles just like a kayak mostly because it is much shorter than a touring kayak and, of course, there is no rudder. But I've never had a problem with it taking on water--it just seems to float over waves. It is great for maneuvering through tight spots in small streams. For short carries, I just lift it up and carry it on my head or on my shoulder. You can purchase a frame to attach to an external frame backpack for longer carries. I think the Hornbeck is very stable, especially since you sit on the bottom, and it handles well. It takes a little getting used to before you'll feel comfortable getting in and out of it.

We're thinking of getting another one so my husband and I can paddle in separate boats. Trying to put our Mad River on top of the car is difficult and we'd rather have two lightweight canoes than one heavy one. We considered kayaks (not a double one) but really like the size, length, and weight of the Hornbecks.

Pat T

 

[Peakbagr]

Pete Hornbeck now makes a model called the Black Jack. 100% carbon fiber, no Kevlar, no wood. Even the thwarts are carbon fiber. Its under 11 lbs.
They donated one to be raffled off at the ADK's Harvest Moon Madness this Fall. I saw it in the ADK warehouse and picked it up with one hand like lifting a small bag of pet food. Its like you expect it to be heavy and almost fall over with the counterbracing the first time you lift it.

 

[darren]

It was meant to have the paddler sit with their butt on the bottom of the canoe and to be paddled with a double blade. I would say it's still more stable than a kayak, but not much.

Ha. That is funny. I'll take my kayak out in 4' seas with no hestitation. I have never seen a canoe that is more stable than a kayak. Even the old scanoes (the really wide bottom canoes - do they still make them?). I'd never take a canoe out in 4' seas.

- d

 

[Nessmuk]

I need some memory refreshing... Hornbeck- is he the guy that paddled the 12 lb canoe (the Sairy Gamp) up the Raquette River? I read "Adirondack Passage" a while ago, but now can't remember what the original guy's name was. Anyway, is that what you're talking about? A carbon fiber version of that? And it weighs 11 lbs??! Wow! Is it Kevlar and carbon fiber?

You are thinking of Nessmuk, pen name for George Washington Sears. I've had a Hornbeck boat for several years and paddled it hundreds of miles, probably carried it almost as far on my back. There are numerous models of the Hornbeck. The newest Black Jack is all carbon at 12 pounds. I have Peter's first built hybrid kevlar/carbon (serial number 001). My avatar shows it with a home made spray cover. The original 10.5 foot 17 pound "Lost Pond" boat is loosely modeled after the Rushton designed Sairy Gamp that Nessmuk paddled through the Adirondacks from Boonville.

Although built for carrying into remote ponds, I've had the Hornbeck on plenty of big water. Even with a heavy load and only a couple of inches of freeboard, it tends to bob over waves in windy conditions. I've never been swamped, but spray does get blown in, hence the homemade covers. Last summer I starting out as Nessmuk did from Boonville, but I continued paddling and carrying all the way on to finish at Plattsburgh, 185 miles away. I figure I carried a third of the way, paddled two thirds on all kinds of water.

I also have 3 locally made cedar wood strip boats: a 15.5 foot canoe (this is my workhorse boat when not pond hopping), a guideboat, and a 30 foot war canoe (for the 90 Miler Adirondack Classic). Oh, and a lightweight aluminum skin Grumman that doesn't see much use anymore. And a brand new very fast 28 pound RapidFire from Placid Boats.

 

[adkayaker]

Hornbeck vs.

Given the huge range of kayak types, you are of course asking how Hornbecks compare to similar length and width recreational kayaks, not touring or sea kayaks.

I did extensive testing on pack type canoes before choosing one. My search factors were swayed by extensive experience paddling faster long canoes and kayaks.

My quickly formed opinion on the Hornbecks was that while they excel off the water, they left me desiring more on the water. If my primary use were frequent portaging to backcountry ponds to fish and explore, i would have bought one for sure. However, I felt that they lacked significant glide, ability to lean to turn, and were very slow paddling for me. While I did need soemthing lightweight to carry, i still demanded a boat that got me from point A to B efficiently. At the time, I found a pack canoe from bell that offered that and purchased it. Since then, there are numerous new competitors to hornbeck that offer more efficient paddling boats. I am not talking about speed for racing or being in a rush. For every paddle stroke I make, I expect to cover some distance efficiently so paddling is not a chore.

Comparing them to a similiar priced and sized recreational kayak can only be answered by test paddling. But you will never find a kayak as lightweight as a Hornbeck. Is that a priority however?

 

[Peakbagr]

For me, weight will always be a critical factor. I'm first a hiker, and the lighterweight boat will allow me to more easily carry it further, so I can hike or fish. I don't necessarily need it to be 12 lbs, but I'd rather it not be 20, when I'm carrying a hiking pack or fishing gear or both.

 

[Jay H]

I am building a off-road kayak cart for my house. I live in a small lake community where i am about a 1/2 mile via a woods road and small singletrack trail to the lake. I think it is pointless for me to pack my car and drive the 1/2 mile just to go kayaking in the lake so I've scavanged 2 20" BMX bike wheels and I did make a ver 1.0 of the cart but I need a much stronger axle and a better design for v2.0. What I plan on doing is to try to get some PVC and design a inverted 'T' with the 20" wheels on the axle and the bar will allow for much greater support when off-road. Off-road with roots and rocks, what I've found is the kayak wants to go one way and the wheels want to go another so I think the bar in the front with a small padded "V" will keep the wheels straight and aligned with the kayak. Much like the bike kayak trailers made by Paddleboy.

http://www.paddleboy.com/pages/product_pages/pb_flyer.html

I have a friend who is a welder and I might be able to use steel and not pvc, which would be killer.

Obviously, the cart is not made to be transportable via kayak so it's simply a means for me to get into the woods to backcountry lakes around me.

Jay

 

[darren]

Anyone ever use one of these:

It's a Compass Cayak. Their website is down so I dont know if they are out of business or what.

Anyway, Osprey Sea Kayak Adventures in Westport, MA (friends of mine) have a used 12'9", 22 lb one for $650.

Sounds like a sweet solo fishing / photography unit.

- darren

 

[KayakDan]

Can't say that I ever saw that cayak at Sam & Carls.Must be in their "backyard" fleet somewhere.

While doing the AMC Knubble Bay trip last week,I saw what I believe is a prototype for a sit on top kayak with retractable sponsons. It was brought by a fellow from TopKayaker.net,who was doing an evaluation.
There are two levers which when pulled,depoy the sponsons,to give a nice stable platform. Pretty cool little ride,about 16ft I would guess.

I'll keep my NDK Explorer-damn poor results tryin to roll a sit on top!

 

[Peakbagr]

Nessmuk,

Never did get around to doing anything about the small boat, but thinking about it again.
I admire the spray skirt you built for your boat. But I may get a Blackjack with (carbon fiber gunwales). What do you think about small holes drilled every 12" to 14" (by Pete of course), and then use the holes to thread 2mm cord attached to a skirt. Not as quick and efficient as your system, but maybe?? Alternative is to glue velcro to the gunwale tops (Ugh) and attach skirt that way.

Thanks