Lnt

[SAR-EMT40]

No fair,

It appears that the back hoof of the so called "dead horse" graphic is moving when it is beaten.

FIX YOUR DEAD HORSE

I expect my "dead horses" to show no visable signs of life.

Keith

 

[dr_wu002]

and welcoming our very own Afka_Bob back from his hiatus.

He was on vacation. I for one missed him.

I don't think I understand this thread though and I think it'll be closed soon.

-Dr. Wu

 

[Neil]

Anybody doing some neat hikes this weekend?

This potentially explosive and ugly thread subject has had me chuckling good naturedly. You guys ARE funny and the comic relief is a relief after the airplane thing. And perhaps the "problem" as perceived here is that people aren't getting out hiking enough these days.

 

[vtlukekultv]

good thread going here folks, this is one that's always worth discussing.

although i think that "lnt" is a superficial and undefined benchmark, i believe that it is essential that we minimize our impact outdoors. for me, this means not hiking much of this month (sad face) because the woods are in such as mucky state that it would just lead to wider trails and less flowers. however, i understand that this is my personal choice which i cannot enforce upon others. although i believe that everyone should act the way i do, i know that other people have their standards which they are as inflexible as i am about. there have been lots of times in the past when i've gotten goddamn angry at people for not acting in the ways i would like, but no one can be forced into doing something they are not willing to do. this applies to the mountains, rivers, lakes, hills, dales, trails, trees, and everything else that exists outside. the fact is that we all, as honest taxpayers own a stake of our hills there is not one owner we can all point to to congratulate or chastize(sp?) when something good or bad happens (and who decides on what's good and bad???). the most that we can expect from anyone else is perfection in our eyes, but that will never happen, no matter how loud one person yells. until i come up with a solution that works for everyone, everwhere, i will continue leaving no trace as best I can, and telling others why i believe that is important.

luke

 

[sierra]

Lnt?

I do not practice or believe in LNT. The concept itself is flawed from the begining, its impossible to leave know trace when you stomp your way through the mountains. Besides who sets the rules? You expect me to practice LNT after the AMC builds huts, cuts trails every 5 miles? I dont litter thats how far I carry LNT, to be honest I believe the mountains are my domain and I use them as I see fit, the rest of you can do what you want, eother way it wont bother me.

 

[rondak46]

Golf Parable...

I carry out more than what I carry in. One of my favorite moral parables is related to golf, and life.

If you duff a shot, replace two divots. The beauty of this is that if everyone did it, everyone would have to repair only one (their own) divot, and there would be no holes on the course.

So, when I hike or camp, I carry out a little more than I carried in, and leave the place just a little better than I found it.

IMHO, much better than the LNT doctrine; at least as it has been expressed here.

Mike

 

[afka_bob]

For those welcoming me back, thank you.

I do not practice or believe in LNT. The concept itself is flawed from the begining, its impossible to leave know trace when you stomp your way through the mountains. Besides who sets the rules? You expect me to practice LNT after the AMC builds huts, cuts trails every 5 miles? I dont litter thats how far I carry LNT, to be honest I believe the mountains are my domain and I use them as I see fit, the rest of you can do what you want, eother way it wont bother me.

Begging your pardon (if such a thing is to be practiced or believed), but by this logic, any code of courtesy or accomodation of others by anyone is also not to be practiced or believed in, as complete adherence is at best an admirable but unattainable goal.

 

[JeffAndrews]

I'm pretty new here, but it seems to me that threads like this seem to grow dramatically during and after rainy weekends. There are a bunch of them blossoming around VFTT this week.

I think of them as mushroom threads.

 

[McRat]

LNT is the ideal, summed up in three words, that should be aspired to.

Anyone debating LNT is probably not as much a part of the problem as someone who has never heard/cared about it.

The holy crusade for LNT purity is what gets problematic. Most hikers will observe the practices of others and emulate the ones that work for them, and will tend to resist the angry rantings of the purist.

I don't litter because it looks lousy. I pick up other's litter for the same reason. I once got a stern and animated lecture about LNT while burning deadfall wood in an existing fire ring, at a legal site.

That I had cleared the site, crushed and packed out almost two cases of empty beer cans and used the cardboard boxes for kindling doesn't matter. I had burned sacred deadfall that should compost in place.

Do you even think the (idiots / teens) who left the mess would have even stopped to listen to the ranting purist about the obvious littering?

I would suspect that most of the people on this board love the outdoors enough to keep it as nice as possible for the next person, but some people have more skill and concern - and may do a better job at it.

Let's all try to get along and teach each other better practices, but let's not forget that the purest form of 'Leave No Trace' is 'Do Not Visit'.

 

[Chip]

I think of them as mushroom threads.

Ah, The "Nuclear Option" we've heard so much about...

Jeep says "Tread Lightly", which is more realistic than LNT.

Let's see;
-Plan Ahead and Prepare - done
-Travel and Camp on Durable Surfaces - mostly
-Dispose of Waste Properly - no problem
-Leave What You Find - don't need any more rocks
-Minimize Campfire Impacts - don't use them
-Respect Wildlife - as long as they do the same to me, they're safe
-Be Considerate of Other Visitors - as I would have them be to me.

It's really not that bad, but every now and then a blade of grass will be broken.

 

[Neil]

Kinda hard for anybody to argue against the idea of Leave No Trace. Just the title on its own makes good simple sense. Probably pretty tough to attain 100% but a man's reach should be beyond his grasp or whatever that expression is.

Turns out I've been practicing most of the stuff on that link while hiking in the Rockies and the NE out of common sense.

These ones caught my eye however:

1-examine, but do not touch, cultural or historic structures and artifacts.

A perfectly valid and reasonable suggestion but one person's piece of garbage is another's historical artefact.

2-Avoid loud voices and noises

I often let out a holler when I'm rounding a bend or cresting a rise just so any friendly neighbourhood bruins know I'm coming. In grizzly territory I've sounded an air horn every minute or so while getting above treeline.
Also, I love playing the flute. It can be loud. I was once told by a guy that he heard it on Marcy from Panther Gorge. I always get rave comments from those in earshot but maybe the ones who hate it are too polite too say anything.

3-Pack out toilet paper and hygiene products.
What can I say? If I am not in proximity to a privy I usually bury my TP and this winter I mostly did day trips and the question never arose. I suppose TP takes about 50 years to completely breakdown...

In certain areas some (many?)of the suggestions are law. (Get caught removing a fossil from the Burgess Shale in B.C. and say good-by to your bank balance). However, for the most part these sensible suggestions are just that, suggestions. You can't force me to walk through that muddy section, pack out my TP or stop singing Bee Gees tunes (boo me and I'll take the hint ).
If there are anti-LNTers (I've read some strongly worded anti-LNT posts) it sure isn't because of what is written on that website. In all likelihood, some LNT practitioners must have come on too strong in trying to get everyone on their wavelength.

 

[VFTTop'r]

These ones caught my eye however


3-Pack out toilet paper and hygiene products.
What can I say? If I am not in proximity to a privy I usually bury my TP and this winter I mostly did day trips and the question never arose. I suppose TP takes about 50 years to completely breakdown...

However, for the most part these sensible suggestions are just that, suggestions. You can't force me to walk through that muddy section, pack out my TP

What if the LNT guidelines change from digging a hole for feces to packing them out in a bag or container for proper disposal, I wonder how many would comply?

 

[dr_wu002]

What if the LNT guidelines change from digging a hole for feces to packing them out in a bag or container for proper disposal, I wonder how many would comply?

That's what you use your bear canister for when you've eaten all the food... you put it back in The can could make a perfect toilet. Double use!

-Dr. Wu

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I will pack my poop out when the animals start doing the same. My poop is no less biodegradable then theirs. And mine would degrade just as fast as theirs if I didn't bury it.

Why is it when we step in moose scat "we have experienced a natural experience" but if we step in human scat the world comes to an end?

Yes, this is rhetorical.

Keith

 

[rhihn]

2-Avoid loud voices and noises

Also, I love playing the flute. It can be loud. I was once told by a guy that he heard it on Marcy from Panther Gorge. I always get rave comments from those in earshot but maybe the ones who hate it are too polite too say anything.

Who says I'm too polite? Seriously, I've heard Neil's flute playing twice over Copperas Pond in the Adirondacks, and it was sweet! By contrast, on one of those days we also heard several shots from hunters (presumably not shooting at Neil!). Another loud noise to be avoided?

 

[TCD]

"Why is it when we step in moose scat "we have experienced a natural experience" but if we step in human scat the world comes to an end?"

Great (rhetorical) point. Similarly, why is it that when deer make a herdpath by using an obvious route through the woods, it's an interesting natural phenomenon, but when humans make a herdpath it's the end of the world?

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Similarly, why is it that when deer make a herdpath by using an obvious route through the woods, it's an interesting natural phenomenon, but when humans make a herdpath it's the end of the world?

Now you did it. You are thinking logically. We will have none of that.

I personally like seeing herd paths and I usually don't care who makes them. It is just one more lane to explore. It is a very large forest.

Anyone else for some logic. Jump in. The water is apparently fine and I guess this has gone non-rhetorical.

Keith

 

[Neil]

Perhaps someone can follow up on this. If I'm not mistaken human faeces are a very important source of Giardia propogation and were it not for our offerings the filter companies might not be in business. I'm certainly not advocating that we use our bear cannisters in the manner suggested by Dr. Wu (Dr. Whew?) but:

here's a little quote from the best article I've read in a long time,

The number of cysts shed in feces is highly variable but has been estimated as high as 900 million per day for humans.

http://www.yosemite.org/naturenotes/Giardia.htm

Now, where's my shovel?

 

[VFTTop'r]

Now, where's my shovel?

You mean where's your zip-lock?

 

[Sherpa John]

I will pack my poop out when the animals start doing the same. My poop is no less biodegradable then theirs. And mine would degrade just as fast as theirs if I didn't bury it.Keith

Actually... Human Scat has far more hazardous and biological chemicals in it than animal scat. Animals eat of the earth.. Humans eat of the earth and whatever poisons we sprinkle on it before we sell it at the store... THEN comsume it... oh.. and you know where it comes out of course.

But an intersting thought on it all... "My Mouth is directly connected to my @$$hole." Imagine that.