Ice tools

I'm planning some trips to the high peaks of the Adirondacks and White Mountains this winter and have found that I'm gonna need ice tools. I already own a non-technical axe that's served me well on walk ups (Washington via Lionshead etc) but I need some help picking a tool or pair of tools for more serious mountaineering. My two big goals for this winter are Gothics North Face and Katahdin.

Question time!
1. Can I make do with a single technical tool and an axe or do I need a pair of ice tools?
2. I'm on a pretty tight budget, so what are some older tools that I could pick up without spending more than $100 per tool?
3. Anybody have some old tools lying around that they want to sell me?

About all you'll need are crampons and snowshoes, if you don't already own them.

As for crampons - 10 pointers work well for general alpine conditions in the East. Something like Grivel G10's (if you can find them) or Black Diamond's Contact Strap, which are slightly more aggressive.

Kevin Rooney said:

About all you'll need are crampons and snowshoes, if you don't already own them.

As for crampons - 10 pointers work well for general alpine conditions in the East. Something like Grivel G10's (if you can find them) or Black Diamond's Contact Strap, which are slightly more aggressive.

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No. The OP is planning on climbing semi-technical and/or technical routes. I would think that you'd need two technical tools, but it's not my area of expertise. Where's Leaf?

You might want to try calling or visiting IME in North Conway or OGE (gearx.com) in Burlington for used gear, but can you ever really trust it if you don't know what it's been through?

woodsxc said:

I'm planning some trips to the high peaks of the Adirondacks and White Mountains this winter and have found that I'm gonna need ice tools. I already own a non-technical axe that's served me well on walk ups (Washington via Lionshead etc) but I need some help picking a tool or pair of tools for more serious mountaineering. My two big goals for this winter are Gothics North Face and Katahdin.

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I don't know about Gothics, but Katahdin has everything from winter walk-ups to high-standard ice climbing.

Question time!
1. Can I make do with a single technical tool and an axe or do I need a pair of ice tools?

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This depends on what you want to do...

Your questions sound like beginning ice climber questions. While there are a few ice climbers on this website, you might be better off at an ice climbing website such as http://neice.com/. Many also consider rock climbing experience to be a prerequisite for steep ice climbing (learn rope handing, protection, and general technical climbing in the warm...).

I suggest that you get some competent instruction (eg from a guide or a course) or apprentice yourself to a knowledgeable climber. There are some books that might also be helpful--I recommend:
* "Climbing Ice", by Yvon Chouinard (a classic, still highly recommended)
* "The Ice Experience" by Jeff Lowe
These books are a bit old (the techniques are still good...)--you may be able to find newer ones.

Doug
ex-ice climber

It's possible to climb vertical ice with a glacier axe + a shorter tool (or even with two axes), but a pair of specialized tools would be much more comfortable. (For starters, axes don't offer a decent grip.) For less-than-vertical, one short + one long can be a good combination. Depends on your route. If you really need a pair of tools, you probably need a rope too.

Don't worry too much about the brand of tool, get what you can find used. Expect to pay somewhere from $75 to $100 per tool. (See if you can get the leashes included - good leashes can cost $40 new.) You just missed a couple of good deals in the gear section of SummitPost.

Don't worry about buying used tools - it's metal, it doesn't have much potential for hidden defects.

TEO said:

No. The OP is planning on climbing semi-technical and/or technical routes.

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And we would know that how?

nartreb said:

(See if you can get the leashes included - good leashes can cost $40 new.)

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You can make perfectly good leashes with half-inch webbing see http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15140 and http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15831 for a description and some additional info which may be useful.

Don't worry about buying used tools - it's metal, it doesn't have much potential for hidden defects.

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Metal can fatigue--this is particularly an issue for used crampons. Ice axe/tool points also break occasionally and fatigue can be a factor. Metal tools and crampons may also have been dulled and sharpened enough to significantly shorten the points.

Doug

Doug, I use a home-made leash on my glacier axe, but for technical tools I appreciate the features of a manufactured leash (padding and quick-release mechanisms, notably) -- that's assuming I don't convert to leashless

Metal fatigue is a problem in parts that bend repeatedly. That just doesn't describe the normal use of ice tools, though I suppose it could happen with crampons after a decade or two.

Kevin, google "Gothics North Face".

TEO said:

No. The OP is planning on climbing semi-technical and/or technical routes.

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Kevin Rooney said:

And we would know that how?

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Kevin,

While the OP didn't really say, I'm also guessing that he is interested in semi-technical and/or technical climbing.

<meta-comment>
The post comes across to me like many beginner questions: incompletely specified, perhaps because the poster didn't know enough to fully specify the question.
</meta-comment>


It the OP was indeed asking about technical climbing, let me add that fooling around on steep ice without knowing what you are doing is a good way to get hurt or killed. Competent instruction should help get you past this dangerous point to where you can climb with less risk.

Doug

nartreb said:

Doug, I use a home-made leash on my glacier axe, but for technical tools I appreciate the features of a manufactured leash (padding and quick-release mechanisms, notably) -- that's assuming I don't convert to leashless

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Take a look at my leash design--simple, reliable, and quick release. At least one other ice climber on this BBS has tried it and told me that he liked it. I used it on all of my technical and mountaineering axes and north wall hammers (but not on my regular ice hammer).

Metal fatigue is a problem in parts that bend repeatedly. That just doesn't describe the normal use of ice tools, though I suppose it could happen with crampons after a decade or two.

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The metal just has to be stressed and/or flexed, not actually bent. The bars attaching the fore and aft parts of flexible crampons break pretty frequently. And we also bash our tool points on rock every now and then... One of the key problems with fatigue is that you may not be able to see it in a visual examination of the tool.

Doug

Kevin Rooney said:

And we would know that how?

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We know that because the OP mentioned Gothics North Face specifically. As far as crampons go, I got a pair of Grivel F2's last winter and have occasional access to step in Sabretooths.

Doug, you've hit the nail pretty squarely on the head. I am looking (longingly) at ice climbing, but I can wait. I've got a couple dry ropes. One of the guys I met on campus has worked as an ice climbing guide so I'll be learning from him.

Let me restate my questions more directly. Would someone with experience in technical and semi-technical winter climbing in the Northeast please give me some input on a good tool or pair of tools for a beginner winter mountaineer (1 season of experience)? I don't want new tools, used will do fine. Thank you.

If it helps, here's some more of my winter wish list this year:
Gothics North Face
Katahdin (Cathedral maybe)
Chocorua
Washington Huntington (probably not this year)
Old Speck

If you search ebay or similar for "Omega Pacific Bulldog" you should be able to find a set of new or barely used axes really cheap, definately under $100 for the set. A few of us here bought these a few years ago. They are short and straight handled appropriate for steep gully climbs, not vertical ice.
http://www.outdoorreview.com/cat/ou...ce-tools/omega-pacific/PRD_80810_2970crx.aspx

I made out well on a new set of Simond Anaconda Cup technical axes at Sierra Trading Post a couple years ago, but I don't see them there now.
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/325,1528K_Simond-Anaconda-Cup-Hammer-Ice-Axe-with-Leash.html

Good Luck ! Great Sport !

I guess the fundamental question we've forgotten to ask is, how did you decide that you need an ice tool?


I haven't done Gothics North Face, but that's by far the most technical of the routes you've listed as definite for this year. If it's icy I'd carry a second tool on that one, and same for Huntington Ravine (I assume you mean Central Gully; definitely need two tools and rope for, say, O'Dells), but at most one axe for the rest. Old Speck is a walk-up; Chocorua is still a walk-up but on some routes there are some exposed spots where one axe would provide extra peace of mind. Cathedral trail is a rocky, blocky scramble, there's not much point in carrying an axe for self-arrest but I suppose a short tool could have some use in really icy conditions.

Would someone with experience in technical and semi-technical winter climbing in the Northeast please give me some input on a good tool or pair of tools for a beginner winter mountaineer (1 season of experience)?

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Already done. Pick up what you can find cheap. If it's got a handle and a pointy pick, it'll work fine for you.

nartreb said:

I guess the fundamental question we've forgotten to ask is, how did you decide that you need an ice tool?


I haven't done Gothics North Face, but that's by far the most technical of the routes you've listed as definite for this year. If it's icy I'd carry a second tool on that one, and same for Huntington Ravine (I assume you mean Central Gully; definitely need two tools and rope for, say, O'Dells), but at most one axe for the rest. Old Speck is a walk-up; Chocorua is still a walk-up but on some routes there are some exposed spots where one axe would provide extra peace of mind. Cathedral trail is a rocky, blocky scramble, there's not much point in carrying an axe for self-arrest but I suppose a short tool could have some use in really icy conditions.


Already done. Pick up what you can find cheap. If it's got a handle and a pointy pick, it'll work fine for you.

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Thanks Nartreb! I'm really looking at Gothics as the technical high point of the season (Katahdin would be the biggest expedition).

I've been up Gothics NF a few times. What you need will be entirely dependent on conditions and on route selection.

Conditions: There are days (I was fortunate to get one last year) when the face is perfect neve, and you could walk up a well selected line with crampons and a ski pole. On other days, to quote Don Mellor, the face can be "...a whirlwind of spindrift on verglassed rock, and only the best technique will suffice."

Route selection: The easiest line on GNF is never steeper than maybe 45 degrees, so curved shafts and steeply drooped picks will never be necessary for that line. But there are many more difficult lines to select; I'm sure really challenging mixed lines could be climbed through the rock ramparts on climber's left, where you would need the most modern technical tools.

So, again, it depends. (Isn't that the answer to most climbing questions?)

Have fun and be careful!

TCD

What TCD said. I have climbed Gothics N. Face in all kinds of conditions, with and without tools. It's all conditions dependent. I would stay away from used tools. The picks are the first things to go and older model replacement picks are hard to find and expensive. Climbing even lower angle ice with worn-out picks is not fun. I'd go with new, less expensive, straighter shaft tools, unless you think you might want to climb steeper stuff at some point. If so, I'd bite the bullet now and get some state-of-the-art ice tools.

I agree. Just looked at a new Stubai Hornet tool for about $80 + shipping at a European mail order shop...that's probably about the bottom of the retail price range for a new technical tool. You might look to see if anyone on NEIce or NEClimbs has anything new to sell at a discount.

woodsxc said:

Let me restate my questions more directly. Would someone with experience in technical and semi-technical winter climbing in the Northeast please give me some input on a good tool or pair of tools for a beginner winter mountaineer (1 season of experience)? I don't want new tools, used will do fine. Thank you.

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For everything less than vertical I would recommend 1 mountaineering Axe (length your preference) and 1 more aggressive short axe. You mentioned you have a mountaineering axe so I would recommend the Camp Nanotech for a shorty.

I have 2 50cm Nanotech and really like them.

Search views for GNF. Leaf, Jeff and Myself did it a year or 2 ago.

Remember - this stuff can be fun or not so much

Since you are looking into eventually doing technical ice climbing, I would recommend just getting a set of good ice tools. Petzl is releasing a new set of Quarks this year, which have been one of the staples in ice climbing. At this time, you can pick up the previous models for pretty cheap.

Aviarome

Craig said:

For everything less than vertical I would recommend 1 mountaineering Axe (length your preference) and 1 more aggressive short axe. [/URL]

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I don't agree with this recommendation. Mountaineering axes combined with a tool are fine for ice slopes up to about 45 - 50 degrees. Anything steeper and you will be very glad to have 2 tools.