The cost of safety

Cushetunk,

Well said, that's why I love snowshoeing. I grew up in Vermont, where there are many untrailed mtn's not on the Long Trail, so if you went in the woods in winter you wore snowshoes or didn't go.

A girl can never have too many ‘shoes

snowshoes that is!!

While some people try to avoid wearing snowshoes when at all possible, I look for every opportunity to put them on. They are like wings for my feet and I can soar through the hills. Winter is best seen in snowshoes.

I watched a guy break his ankle because he wouldn't put on crampons until it was too late.

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The inverse is true as well. You can slip anytime, crampons or no.

And sorry, the argument that "I don't have any", doesn't cut it--if you don't have appropriate gear and skills you shouldn't be there.

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Where?? and Why??

How is one to learn from their mistakes, or mistakes judged by others? Example. One learns to take snowshoes b/c one hates *&^% postholing. I think this goes a lot further than any absolutes/regulations/pontificating.

On a side note. I often mentally thank the "postholers" on the trail for pointing out the true river bank, runoff or "soft" spot.

jaytrek57,

>> I watched a guy break his ankle because he wouldn't put on crampons until it was too late.
>
> The inverse is true as well. You can slip anytime, crampons or no.

Irrelevant in this case.

This accident occurred on a hardpack snow slope in Huntington Ravine, the victim was there to ice climb. He was attempting to reach a higher rock to put on his crampons. The rule is to recognize the coming need and to put them on before you need them. He didn't and didn't self arrest either. He could have cut steps, too. Slid into a lower rock.

He didn't have the sense to put the crampons on before he ascended the slope. Bad judgment. Inadequate skills. Penalty extracted.


>> And sorry, the argument that "I don't have any", doesn't cut it--if you don't have appropriate gear and skills you shouldn't be there.
>
> Where?? and Why??

I'm sorry. If the conditions warrent the use of a piece of equipment and you don't have it, it doesn't matter why. You should turn around before you need it. Otherwise bad judgment and unjustifiable risk.

The natural world is indifferent to you. Winter can be severe. The greater the risks that you take (for whatever reason), the greater the chance that you will be hurt or killed.

> How is one to learn from their mistakes, or mistakes judged by others?

The smart way to learn from mistakes is to learn from other people's mistakes, not your own. Think, listen to instructors and experienced individuals, read accident reports. And keep thinking.

I learned winter mountaineering in an organized program from very experienced instructors and have continued to study it ever since. This has been a significant factor in keeping me safe in winter for 30+ yrs.

I have seen too many unjustifiably risky events (some resulting in accidents) described in trip reports which would never have been allowed to happen if the participants had exercised better judgment.

Doug

Dougpaul:

I mean neither to dispute your point you have just posted nor diminish the need for proper experience and/or gear (and use of).

I guess I can post of the experience people, who put their crampons on at the “appropriate” time, and still broke their ankle (I know of 2 of the top of my head). I would hate to tell them they were being penalized.

The smart way to learn from mistakes is to learn from other people's mistakes, not your own. Think, listen to instructors and experienced individuals, read accident reports. And keep thinking.

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While I agree to extent, I am reminded of the warning we are all told when we are children.

"Don't touch the pot...it's hot".

We don't truly learn till we touch the pot.

I've learned a lot more through my own mistakes, then others. Yeah, maybe not the smart way...but there it is.

Alas, from my end I agree with you more than anything. I just don't like seeing "newbies", "rookies" or the "inexperience" taken to task for perhaps things they may not know, or even people who may disagree with a certain way of doing things.

Bruschi is out of the hospital, Red Sox have full practice in a couple of days, and I am going to the mountains on Sunday...all and all...

Peace.

Jaytrek57,

As I'm sure you are aware, winter mountaineering is far more serious than many other forms of recreation: if you screw up, you risk injury or death rather than the other team just getting a point or two.

One can control the amount of risk to a significant amount, but one cannot eliminate it entirely--luck is still a significant factor. We take risks every time we go out and luck is usually with us. And sometimes a very competent individual gets hurt doing something we consider to be low risk.

Climbers tend to use the concept of "justifiable risk" which takes into account skill, risk of an error, consequences of the error, and alternate ways of doing the action in question. For instance, crossing an icy slope without crampons might be an unjustifiable risk, crossing the same slope with crampons might be a justifiable risk. A rope might not prevent a fall, but it can reduce the consequences. Unfortunately gaining the skill to be safe (safer?) frequently involves taking risks. (How does an expert get to be an expert?) I'm just hoping my comments can help people (particularly beginners) to minimize their overall risks by avoiding unjustifiable ones. And hopefully luck will be with them too.

I try to judge how safe an individual is by how justifiable his risks are rather than the luck influenced outcome. A number of others (including my partner and myself) had ascended the slope in Huntington safely by skill and/or putting their crampons on before they were needed. That was just an example where someone took an easily avoidable (and thereby unjustifiable) risk which was underscored by immediate consequences. One would hope that an ice climber would have the knowledge and judgment to avoid such a rookie mistake.

Planning on going out myself on Monday...

Enjoy the hills, hopefully safely.

Doug

AlG said:

In New York's Adirondack Mountains, snowshoes or skis are required. Is there such a rule in the Whites, or in Maine?

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I suppose that NY makes you wear a seatbelt too... Rules, rules rules.

BrentD22 said:

Tramper please take no offense to this post, I thank you for caring enough about a perfect stranger enough to let him know that it might be a good idea to use snow shoes in order to insure he/I will get back to my family safely, thank you!

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That's cool. Trip proposals and reports posted publicly here often elicit advice, welcome and otherwise. May be taken with salt or straight, as desired. I take as much (or more) guidance from here as I give.

May your adventures be both fun and safe.

>> Originally Posted by AlG
>> In New York's Adirondack Mountains, snowshoes or skis are required. Is there such a rule in the Whites, or in Maine?

> Posted by Jasonst
> I suppose that NY makes you wear a seatbelt too... Rules, rules rules.

AIG:
There is no such rule in the Whites and I am not aware of any rule requiring you to use them in Maine. (BSP may require you to bring them.) But the level of postholing also suggests a lot of poor judgment prevails in the Whites.

However, in NH one is at risk for being charged for the cost of a rescue if one is judged to be reckless.
http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Newsroom/News_2001_and_previous/news_search_and_rescue_99.htm
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xii/153-a/153-a-24.htm

Jasont:
People can (and will) argue about seatbelt laws all they want. Mandated or not, I'd argue that one is a fool if he doesn't use them.

Doug

I suppose that NY makes you wear a seatbelt too... Rules, rules rules.

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New York is definitely NOT the "Live Free or Die" State. I agree that the regulations in New York are probably too absolutist for a lot of people, but unfortunately, the powers-that-be in New York believe they have to dumb things down to the lowest common demoninator. Let's look at it this way though...

Does having regulations on the books create smarter winter hikers? I doubt it does so very often. But it does provide Rangers an opportunity to address the issue when they see winter hikers who are not prepared or not applying common sense on the trail or at trailhead. (NY Rangers are very active at trailheads and on the trails, so it's extrememly realistic to believe that they do have some control and influence on hikers in this manner.) The consequenses of poor choices are obvious to us all...crappy trail conditions are created when proper equipment for the conditions is not used. Common sense and experience should be the rule.

Given all this, it is far too often that I see good winter trails ruined by thoughtless hikers who THINK they can get by without using snowshoes or skis. My point of view remains...if you can't travel safely and smartly in the winter and apply proper gear usage to the conditions, then you have no business being out there. Such people risk danger to themselves, potential rescuers and followers-on.

Not carrying snowshoes (let alone wearing them whenever necessary) in the winter (on MOST hikes/climbs) just doesn't make any sense to me. I'm NOT arguing the point about free choice based on conditions (I wholeheartedly agree!), but to me, that's no diferent than leaving the "essentials" (water, first aid, etc) in your car. Snowshoes/skies/crampons should be considered "essentials" on most winter excursions.

Tramper Al said:

Afterall, each of us owes it to our loved ones at home to practice winter hiking as safely as we can feasibly manage.

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If you and your loved one demand that you always carry snowshoes in the wintertime, then by all means do. I don't always need or want too.

There are a lot of different ways to hike in these mountains. Some ways are inherently safer than others. Solo hiking is not as safe as group hiking, winter hiking is not as safe as summer hiking. i am happiest in a community that understands this, and that gives indviduals the freedom to self-determine the type of experience and level of risk.

My two cents -

To those of you who are diehard snowshoe users - how much/often do you practice more advanced climbing techniques? On many routes in the Northeast in the winter, when I'm already carrying a rope, pro, ice axes, and other gear, snowshoes are just too much weight. On many larger mountains around the world - snowshoes aren't used because they add weight. Even when my friends and I go ice climbing, say, off the summit of Azure Mountain in the Northern ADKs - snowshoes stay home. Webbing, static, rope, ‘beiners, helmets, crampons, and tools all are heavy enough.

What I think many people forget is that you're living in the bubble of Northeastern mountaineering where climbers are taught that snowshoes are crucial. ‘Cushetunk’ is a perfect example of this. Of course it’s still winter hiking even if snowshoes aren’t used. That would be like saying rock climbing is only rock climbing if you use a rope. If I free solo a pitch of rock – does that make it not rock climbing because a rope wasn’t used? Of course not. On a recent trip to Azure Mountain we postholed in knee deep snow, off trail, descending a gully from an ice climbing area. Just because you don’t have snowshoes doesn’t mean you can’t hike off trail.

My point is that yes, snowshoes are helpful. For the mountaineering that is most often practiced by the members of this bored, they’re crucial. But the opinions displayed here by some members go beyond that. People have stated that they “hate” postholers, that people who don’t carry snowshoes are irresponsible. Don’t be so closed minded about climbing techniques…

Here ‘endeth the lesson,
Oysterhead

Caleb says it best

I vote for Caleb, hike your own hike.

Kevin - I agree with you, it is apples and oranges when my ice climbing example is used. but its not in a situation where I may be climbing a route in the ADKs (like the North Face of Gothics) or in the Whites (like Huntington) - I may elect not to carry snowshoes due to the nature of the climbs and the weight factor. Once we're off the climb though, we'd be using standard hiking trails for the descent. Whats more important - sacrificing the weight and carrying snowshoes; or not carrying them and facing the wrath of other hikers? I would elect not to carry the shoes; but my impression from some of the posts here is that many other hikers would not be understanding of this decision.

peace
Oysterhead

This weekend...

Went up Liberty Trail to Jim Liberty Cabin. The trail was moderately broken out about .2 past trail head and I made the decision not to rent snow shoes.

I saw 14 people over the course of the weekend. 5 that packed down the trail on Friday/Saturday (thanks guys). 2 groups of 2 on Saturday morning at the cabin (day hikers), 2 more people on the way up as I was going down and the last 3 people (if my math is correct) had on snoe shoes. The only people I saw wearing them on their feet the whole weekend where the last 3 people. Now at this point the trail was sufficently packed down and bare booting was no problem. Now I don't think it was a poor choice to wear snow shoes. It did help them when they accidentially stepped off the pack (I assume), but in this case I think it has very little to do with safety it has to do with personal prefrence.

I tend to carry crampons, skins, and/or snowshoes for pack ballast. I hardly ever use crampons, but I always have them with me. I would hate to be stuck in the woods overnight in the winter because I didn't have the right gear to get myself out.

Kevin Rooney said:

Hey there MrOysterhead -

I think I understand your point, but IMHO you're comparing apples and oranges. If you and other ice climbers want to posthole down a gully used only by other ice climbers, I doubt few would object, especially if NOT carrying snowshoes is the norm among ice climbers. On the other hand, if you posthole a trail that is primarily as a hiking trail, then many would object, since carrying/wearing snowshoes IS the norm on hiking trails.

Kevin

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I thought the issue was safety, not courtesy. About courtesy though, this type of courtesy is not something I expect or offer. When foot trails are snowed upon they are subject to a diversity of use. I embrace this and I don't have the slightest expectation barebooters stay off 'snowshoe' trails, even when I'm on snowshoes. I also tolerate mountain bikes and pack animals pretty well, where they are permitted, even though I got creamed once by a mountain bike in Colorado. C