Best Warm When Wet Base/Insulator?

DougPaul said:

IIRC, old time NE loggers used to just wear wool all winter (don't know about an outer wind layer) and just walk through streams. Probably didn't get any days off because of rain or warm snow, either.


Doug

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Not to chime in semi off topic here, but in relation to the above comment. Didn't Sir Edmind Hillary and Tenzig norgay summit Everest basically wearing wool? At that time I really don't think there was anything else. I also don't think you could come up with any more adverse conditions than the ones they must've encountered..I'd say that makes a terrific case for the old standard WOOL...bee around forever..how can soo many sheep be wrong? Even with all the technological advances in fabrics sometimes the "original" is still the best.

M

KMartman said:

Not to chime in semi off topic here, but in relation to the above comment. Didn't Sir Edmind Hillary and Tenzig norgay summit Everest basically wearing wool? At that time I really don't think there was anything else.

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Down also, IIRC.

High on Everest is primarily dry cold plus altitude. The original question here was about very wet at near freezing temps. Rather different.

These days, people climb in down suits high on Everest--not enough oxygen to work hard enough to generate much heat... Not very useful for Dave's hiking while soaked problem.

Doug

Shackleton explored Antartica in wool. Granted he died.

I noted this in another post recently, but the amazing thing I find with wool is the fact that you never feel overheated in, rather you just feel comfortable. Sometimes even on the coolish side, which I rather enjoy.

DougPaul said:

Down also, IIRC.

High on Everest is primarily dry cold plus altitude. The original question here was about very wet at near freezing temps. Rather different.

These days, people climb in down suits high on Everest--not enough oxygen to work hard enough to generate much heat... Not very useful for Dave's hiking while soaked problem.

Doug

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True but I still think it speaks volumes about wool.......plus I bet they got pretty sweaty...

M

Jkrew81 said:

Shackleton explored Antartica in wool. Granted he died.

I noted this in another post recently, but the amazing thing I find with wool is the fact that you never feel overheated in, rather you just feel comfortable. Sometimes even on the coolish side, which I rather enjoy.

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Shackleton lived (he was the great survivor). I think you are referring to Scott.

Most of the pre-WW-II Brits were idiots when it came to exploration of the polar regions--they did it in the "British Way" and ignored the techniques that were used by the natives. Many died in conditions where the natives thrived. Check out the search for the Northwest Passage.

I have certainly overheated in wool.

There are other ways too:
The Inuit didn't have wool. They used two layers of animal skin--a thin inner layer and a heavy outer layer. Thermal control was by venting the outer layer. When they went inside, they would leave the outer layer out in the cold so the moisture in it wouldn't melt and form ice chunks next time they used it.

Not sure this is of any use to the very wet cold problem.

Doug

Wool is an excellent insulator when wet, but it has drawbacks. I have a pair of Malone pants that will keep me warm even when soaked, but they get awfully heavy, they itch, and they tend to smell like a wet sheep...

DougPaul said:

Shackleton lived (he was the great survivor). I think you are referring to Scott.
Doug

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oops, your right.

wetsuit/drysuit

-percious

percious said:

wetsuit/drysuit

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(Don't know how much you know about wet and dry suits...)

A wetsuit (sheet neopreme foam) plus shells would work, but you would end up looking like one big prune by the end of the day... You would definitely want something dry to change into at night if it was a multi-day trip.

A drysuit is just a waterproof shell layer with seals at the openings over (hopefully) dry insulation. Unfortunately, sweat would soak the insulation if you were hiking.

Doug

Folks,

Thanks for all of your replies. This type of weather certainly is tricky but it also has its own (sick) rewards. Here's what I think I've been hearing from the borg like collective!

BASE LAYERS
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Seems like a pretty even split between fans of treated polyester (Capilene) and merino wool. A few shout outs for fishnet but relatively few of us seem to actually remember real polypropilene. (that's sort of an oxymoron, no?)


INSULATING LAYERS
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Seems like another pretty even split between fleece and wool. I was surprised that fewer people were able to talk about the difference between fleece and pile (e.g. Baby Retro pile). The one thing I heard a few times that rings true with my experience with wool is the weight and packability factor.

Thanks again!

Campmor has some Duofold tops on sale: Duofold

dave.m said:

BASE LAYERS
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Seems like a pretty even split between fans of treated polyester (Capilene) and merino wool. A few shout outs for fishnet but relatively few of us seem to actually remember real polypropilene. (that's sort of an oxymoron, no?)

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As one who has used both:
I mostly remember (real) polypro as being scratchier than polyester. Polypro is also very stretchy (no lycra needed...) whereas polyester stretches very little. (Polyester is used in sails for just this reason.) Polyester just feels more comfortable on my skin. As for moisture and thermal performance, I don't recall any difference. (But I haven't tried the fair test of polypro on one side of my body and polyester on the other.)

Manufacturers also needed something new to promote--polypro just lasts too long (as observed by someone on rec.backcountry, possibly Clyde Soles.)

But the name polypro lives on--I even heard an REI saleswoman call modern polyester "polypro".

FWIW, I still use my polypro occasionally: if it is really cold, I might wear the polypro over polyester to make a warmer bottom layer.

Doug

My other recollection of polypro was that it shrank to the size of doll clothes if it got into a warm dryer (a line I have stolen from Clyde Soles, if I recall). And while stretchy, it seems to act like a big ball of velcro. All of the pieces I owned (LIFA T necks, Patagonia Quilted Polypro sweater) stuck to themselves, to other layers and pretty much everything else laying about. And ditto on the stracthiness.

But, man o man, I'm not convinced the polyester stuff really does the trick when totally soaked. Polyester is certainly capable. Warm enough when I'm moving. But it just seems sort of spongy, really holding on to the moisture once soaked. I seem to recall (this is going back into a hazy fog of 20 years ago) that my LIFA stuff was never ever wet, even when it was wet. I mean, it got wet in the same way a plastic pepsi bottle did. Just shake the water off and it was dry. But I fear I'm just romantacizing that otherwise horrible stuff.

dave.m said:

My other recollection of polypro was that it shrank to the size of doll clothes if it got into a warm dryer (a line I have stolen from Clyde Soles, if I recall). And while stretchy, it seems to act like a big ball of velcro. All of the pieces I owned (LIFA T necks, Patagonia Quilted Polypro sweater) stuck to themselves, to other layers and pretty much everything else laying about. And ditto on the stracthiness.

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Ahh yes--the details are slowly coming back. I just always hand washed mine. I only had polypro long underwear.

But, man o man, I'm not convinced the polyester stuff really does the trick when totally soaked. Polyester is certainly capable. Warm enough when I'm moving. But it just seems sort of spongy, really holding on to the moisture once soaked. I seem to recall (this is going back into a hazy fog of 20 years ago) that my LIFA stuff was never ever wet, even when it was wet. I mean, it got wet in the same way a plastic pepsi bottle did. Just shake the water off and it was dry. But I fear I'm just romantacizing that otherwise horrible stuff.

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I suspect the difference is in how the fabric is made. Neither fiber absorbs water. (BTW, nylon does absorb water and elongates--that is why a wet tent (or sail) sags.) My polypro (brand?) uses a large diameter fiber with a rather open knit and my polyester (REI MTS) uses a small diameter fiber with a more closed knit. The water would be held between the fibers--so it would seem logical that the polyester garment would hold more water.

An interesting experiment: take two identical garments, one polyester and the other polypro, soak them in water, and weigh them to see how much water they pick up. And maybe let them hang to air dry and periiodically weigh them. Maybe I'll try it later today or this weekend...

FWIW, I don't recall ever being as soaked in the woods (at least during my polypro and polyester eras) as you have reported so I don't have equivalent experience. I tend to be lazy and stay home when conditions are bad. (I have done my share of bad weather hiking, am confident that I can handle if need be, but feel no compulsion to seek it out...)

Doug

I wear Capaline underwear period, covered with fleece, then a Gore-tex shell. I would carry a change of all the above and quickly change right away once in my tent and sure my second set would stay dry. I would then light my stove and my lantern ( venting the tent of course) hanging my wet clothes they would be dry the next morning, then the dry set I had put on would be my hiking set and so on and so forth, got that?