Identify these flowers?

Here's another, saw it all over the lower Great Range last week but I don't think I've seen it in NH. Huge (coupla inches tall) deep-blue buds standing straight up from leafy stems (at least a foot tall, with many lanceolate leaves extending horizontally from the stem). Never saw the flowers opened except some that were shrivelled and pale as if dessicated.

click for photo

nartreb said:

Here's another, saw it all over the lower Great Range last week but I don't think I've seen it in NH. Huge (coupla inches tall) deep-blue buds standing straight up from leafy stems (at least a foot tall, with many lanceolate leaves extending horizontally from the stem). Never saw the flowers opened except some that were shrivelled and pale as if dessicated.

click for photo

Click to expand...

Looks like it's from the Gentiana family.

Nice find.

nartreb said:

Here's another, saw it all over the lower Great Range last week but I don't think I've seen it in NH. Huge (coupla inches tall) deep-blue buds standing straight up from leafy stems (at least a foot tall, with many lanceolate leaves extending horizontally from the stem). Never saw the flowers opened except some that were shrivelled and pale as if dessicated.

click for photo

Click to expand...

Botany is my weakest area, so I'm ready and willing to be contradicted here. Methinks that's Closed Gentian, Gentiana andrewsii. Spotted one of the gentians on my dogwalk route this morning in SE NH -- now I'll have to go back and look more closely to identify the particular species. See what you've started?

I concur with genus Gentiana, but there are lots of species to choose from.

I'm leaning heavily toward narrow-leaved gentian (G. Linearis), though.

Edit: according to the federal PLANTS database, this species is also known as "closed gentian" but it's not the same as Andrewsii. In New York it's listed as "exploitably vulnerable", whatever that means.

Edit 2: looked it up on New York National Heritage Program :

--
Exploitably Vulnerable: listed species are likely to become threatened in the near future throughout all or a significant portion of their range within the state if causal factors continue unchecked.
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nartreb said:

I concur with genus Gentiana, but there are lots of species to choose from.

I'm leaning heavily toward narrow-leaved gentian (G. Linearis), though.

Edit: according to the federal PLANTS database, this species is also known as "closed gentian" but it's not the same as Andrewsii. In New York it's listed as "exploitably vulnerable", whatever that means.

Edit 2: looked it up on New York National Heritage Program :

--
Exploitably Vulnerable: listed species are likely to become threatened in the near future throughout all or a significant portion of their range within the state if causal factors continue unchecked.
--

Click to expand...

Some more pics of the narrow leaf variety
These leaves look much narrower than the ones in your pic.

Yeah, half the narrowleaf pics I find have leaves that are extremely narrow, also short and sparse with a reddish stem. But others are much closer to mine:
example

In many of the photos of andrewsii I see, the leaves aren't narrow enough, and the petal color isn't right, plus there are too many buds in a cluster. example
But those are all variable characteristics, and in some photos the leaves or the color look like a match.

nartreb said:

Yeah, half the narrowleaf pics I find have leaves that are extremely narrow, also short and sparse with a reddish stem. But others are much closer to mine:
example

In many of the photos of andrewsii I see, the leaves aren't narrow enough, and the petal color isn't right, plus there are too many buds in a cluster. example
But those are all variable characteristics, and in some photos the leaves or the color look like a match.

Click to expand...

Now you know why I left the species alone.

NH_Mtn_Hiker said:

Now you know why I left the species alone.

Click to expand...

And if you'd been watching as I waffled back and forth last evening between Soapwort (saponari), Narrow-leaved (linearis), and Closed (andrewsii), you'd know why I'm not at all confident in my ultimate identification.

arghman? arghman? How long are you gonna let us embarrass ourselves?

woods sorel and closed genetian

I love threads like this as I am one of those that like to learn about every thing that I see.

The first time that I saw lupine was at the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. I was just in Montana in the Arbasorka's and saw dwarfed lupine growing at 10-11k. Also saw bottle genetian. Saw many other flowers- but I am a poor photographer.

if I get time one of these days ( ) I will try to ID, I don't have much experience w/ gentians.

caveat: I've got very little experience w/ gentians, just telling you what I'm seeing.

good find w/ the Nearctica site -- few plants sites give online ID characteristics.

From the picture, I am waffling back and forth between G. linearis and G. saponaria. The Nearctica page cites sepal shape (sepals are the next thing down from the petals), & says both G. linearis and saponaria tend to have straight sepals, G. andrewsii has reflexed ones (see http://www.ct-botanical-society.org/galleries/gentianaandr.html) so it's out. Can't tell much more than that, I'll check my copy of Newcomb's when I have a chance. I don't see a good technical characteristic visible in the photo to distinguish the two from the Nearctica page. (don't ask me about petal tips, not enough experience)

The other clue worth noting, that would point me towards G. linearis (I think) is geographical distribution; if the Great Range is in the Adirondacks (I'm ignorant of NYS geography ) and the USDA records are accurate, then it probably rules out G. saponaria. (see http://plants.usda.gov/java/county?state_name=New York&statefips=36&symbol=GELI3 and http://plants.usda.gov/java/county?state_name=New York&statefips=36&symbol=GESA )

edit: p.s. never never never never trust species ID's for pictures posted online, unless they're from a reputable source, and even then sometimes they make mistakes.

G.linearis would be my best guess, especially since the lower leaves were described as lanceolate. On the other hand, the more I look and think ,the more I want to change my mind. This hobby can be infuriating - arghman put it very well.