Boys Scout's have a problem

[BrentD22]

Boys Scout's - Thoughts for Improvment

Please do not read this post and think that I am talking SH#T about the scouts. I am just starting the conversation hoping to help.

At one point in my life I work with the AMC. For some reason I seemed to come across Boy Scout groups that had wonderful people working with the children, but not the best knowledge about the backcountry. Often not respecting the "leave no trace" ethics, going in groups that are far too large, going out in weather without the proper cold weather gear, bringing the scouts to places that they did not have the proper safety equipment for, as well as not seeming to have enough knowledge about the backcoutry to be responsible for their 10 or so kids they have been in-trusted with by their parents.

Now before anyone rips me apart I want to say these people that work with the scouts on a volunteer basis are normally very nice, respectful, and great people. Not all scout leaders are included in what I've describe above and no scout leader that I ever meet has ever put their groups in danger intentionally.

When I started this post I am hoping to be part of the solution not part of the problem.

First I would like to recommend a program that the AMC runs called YOP which I believe is free (which is unusual for the AMC). Which offers great training and free equipment to borrow to oranizations like the scouts. The AMC and other organizations offer programs to help educate backcountry trip leaders on all aspects of backcountry experiances.

 

[Jaytrek57]

Some may know this already. I ran the Youth Opportunities Program (YOP) for the AMC for a number of years and before that I was a volunteer instructor for the program.

While the trainings and workshops are offered to youth workers for drastically reduced prices they are not free and the youth agencies usually pay for their employees. When there is a need YOP offers some scholarships.

Once a youth worker takes the 5 day Outdoor Leadership Training (OLT) that person is know eligible to borrow equipment/clothes (for free) to outfit their youth group. Backpacks, stoves, polypro, fleece, water bottles…you name it.

Also, YOP groups get a significant (30-50%) savings when taking groups to huts and lodges.

YOP started as collaboration between the AMC and the Museum of Science in 1968 to help take inner city kids into the outdoor world…this is still at the heart of YOP’s mission, but it has expanded to hundreds of youth agencies in the NE area.

I like to think YOP is the AMC’s best and most true (to mission) program…but hey I may be biased.

As for the Scouts, I think because they are the organization that by far takes more kids out and does more trips, a few leaders who may not have all the skills may at times give the whole organization a bad rap to many who will make generalizations.

I encourage all who can “do it better” than scout leaders or any youth worker in bringing kids outdoors to volunteer and help out. Any youth agency IMHO opinion would welcome that support.

 

[Rick]

I would have rather seen this thread labeled "Boy Scouts - Thoughts for Improvment" rather than labeling scouts with a problem.
In any event as a former scout and the father of a 4 year old. I know for certain I will become extremely active in the local council next year. Having not been in scouts for a generatoin and 1/2 (easily) but seeing them on outings many times in PA, I do think some leaders are in over their heads at times, but I also give them much credit to take a dozen hyperactive young men out for a weekend or more - What's that old saying walk a mile in someone elses shoes.......
Cheers

 

[adksteve]

As a Scout Leader

I've been involved in Boy Scouts as a leader for about 10 years. I would have to admit that there are groups out on trips that are not well prepared and do not follow LNT programs as they should. I have been fortunate enough to be a hiker and backpacker for over 40 years and I'm constantly making an effort to educate other wilderness travelers on proper use of our woods.

What happens in Boy Scouting is that many leaders are dragged into a position of Scout Leader just because they show an interest in helping young boys advance in the program. They are supplied with a great deal of training or support and are left on their own to learn through trial and error.

There are programs in place that offer outdoor skill training such as the ADK 46er OUTDOOR LEADERSHIP WORKSHOP which is available to Scout Leaders for a minimal fee of $10.00 and they provide food and camping for the weekend http://www.adk46r.org/ .

My suggestion to all is that when you encounter a group of Boy Scouts who need some instruction on their backwoods skills - take some time yourself to help with their growth towards respossible and enviromentally consious hikers and campers. Scouting a great program that needs educated adults who want to volunteer and be involved. As experienced hikers any of us can contribute some of our time the help teach a Troop the proper outdoor skills and I'm certain any Scout Leader would appreciate the help.

 

[paul ron]

I have been involved in BSA for over 18 years and am still active with my local Troop. Both my son's have made Eagle Scout and are well on their way to enlisting their own children in the scouts. Perhaps you are confusing the Boy Scouts of America with other boy related organized groups sponsored by churches, businesses or local organizations? Are you sure they are charter members of BSA? Maybe you saw a couple fathers, weekend warriors, taking their kid's scout patrol out camping saying they are scouts?

BSA, Boy Scouts Of America, has it's own outdoor leader training with emphasis on LNT camping as well as training leaders to manage groups by the rules set and governed by National Boy Scouts Of America, not some rules made up by local yokels. BSA camping is geared more towards car camping since groups are unrealistically too large for backpacking in the back country of the ADKs. The cars are generally parked no more than 1/4 mile away from their sites as well as not using state parks as a general rule since BSA has it's own property specifically designated as campgrounds already geared for large groups. The Scouts you saw in the back country would have had to file tour permits with BSA and acquired State Park permits for their group regardless of size. Once a permit is had, the ranger would then keep an eye on the group to be sure they are conforming to the rules of the park otherwise they are illegally camping and BSA does not endorse this practice. Whenever we camped in State Parks, the local Ranger would check us in as well as out. My Troop would be sure the area is cleaner than we found it, just to impress the crap out of the rangers and set an example to the people watching us, like you did with the group you observed.

As for BSA Troops being unequipped, Boy Scout troops generally have more and better equipment than most any of you do. We get grants every year specifically designated for equipment. If your troops aren't getting these grants, then have the sponsor and the district office investigated since they are stealing money or perhaps your district is not aware of the grants.

Our kids are taught to dress for any weather and are prepared for anything. That is what we take pride in as BSA Scouts. We camp once a month in any weather conditions. Also, trained leaders would never put our children in any danger such as taking a troop to Mt Marcy in February in sneakers and windbreakers. If you have seen BSA Troops putting their group in danger, REPORT THEM TO BSA! They are clearly not abiding by the rules of Boy Scouts or perhaps they are not Boy Scouts of America at all. Were they in uniform?

 

[Sean]

There are two things that I truly love: being outside, and teaching children and young adults. The Boy Scouts have given me an opportunity to share what I love with others and for that I am thankful.

I have seen many Scoutmaster's and other leaders who truly care about the young men in their care, but lacked the training and knowledge to be truly comfortable in the woods. Worse yet, they may not know where to go for help. Thank you for providing some more options that I will definitly pass on.

Last point. I have also seen some truly terrible displays by scout leaders: leaving campsites and AMC huts a mess, putting people at risk without reason, not paying attention to the safety of those entrusted to them. If you see these types of things, some gentle words of correction and advice will probably go a long way.

Sean

 

[Sherpa John]

Agree

I was a boy scout myself, both my brothers are Eagles, my sister a golden girl scout. My father was a scoutmaster for over 15 years and my mother used to work for Daniel Webster Council.

I was disheartened last year hiking on Cannon Mountian when I ran into a sout troop from Westford, Mass. The troop was NOT hiking in a group. In fact they had split into two groups, and had lost each other as one of the groups had taken off the wrong way. And the kicker... how were they looking for each other? CELL PHONES that recieved no service in that area.

I was disgusted and embarassed to even think of being a former Boy Scout. The ethics these leaders are supposedly teaching current scouts are seriously lacking and need help. But then again... the boy scouts have changed over time... and not for the better.

Sherpa J

 

[Sherpa John]

Side Note

There is a Merit Badge in the scouting world most troops do not know about. My father and troop 91 did back in the early 90's. Its a 60-Miler patch that boys can earn from hikin 60+ miles in the wilderness using their various survival and backpacking skills. I was too young at the time Troop 91 went.. I was still just a Cubbie.. but My scoutmasterng father took 12 boys from Glencliff, NH to Crawford notch over an 8 day period. They hiked 72 Miles and did SERVICE projects along the way to help instill the ethics of leave no trace and to upgrade service spots in the whites. KUDOS to them and I wish more of this went on.

 

[coldfeet]

I became an asst. scout leader this past year after the boys voted me in at the past winter camping trip called Bluenose. I have gone on a few trips this year and the leaders always remind the boys to "leave the place cleaner then when you found it!"

 

[BrentD22]

I took your advice

Rick - I agree with your title idea about Thought for Improvement.

To all Scout Leaders ect. - Please understand I am a Teen Center Director. I think what you do is great. Volunteering your time to work with young men is amazingly generous.

JayTrek - Thank you for clearing up the wrongs in my post about YOP. It was some time ago that I went through the course and to be honest I went under someone else's name because they could not go. I didn't know about the fee I think the camp I worked for at the time paid it in advance. And yes I did have to go through the 5 day training up out of Pinkham Notch to get the cert first before being able to borrow equipment. I also agree that that program has to be the most on mission program that the AMC offers!

Paul Ron - At times the boys had on their uniforms, but usually not. If they did wear their cotton uniforms I would have been really concerned up in the Presidential Range wear weather can turn and get vey cold. Cotton kills! Also I know of a Boys Scout Reservation that is about 500 acres and brought a small group of my teens there with the permission of the ranger on the property. The area was littered with trails, trails, trails trails, and more trails. Where there wasn't trails there where structures in disrepair, newly built, and currently being built. Not once did I see any large area with out fire rings or tent platforms. Places like that and leaders that "stick out like sore thumbs" really do give the scouts a bad name.

There is something I didn't think about before posting. That is that if you have 100 people involved in any kind of organization that normally 10 of them will be idiots and stick out like sore thumbs. One of my duties now to help run a very large basketball league with all volunteer coaches. Well with about 10 kids per team with simple math there is about 80 head coaches along with another 40 or so asst. coaches making a total of 120. Yes all volunteer, yes it's great that they give their time, and yes there are about 15 of them that make the rest look bad with some of their behaviors.

Now after saying all of that does anyone have any suggestions on how to help out the 10% factor? There might be no way. Maybe the heads of the head leaders could be sure to match up less experianced leades with more experianced leaders. Others have ideas please bring them on, but please no offense or anything I didn't intend on this post being a place to say "well I was a scout and..." I know and understand that many people had their first experiance with the outdoors with the scouts and had good ones at that, but I want to be part of the solution.

 

[explorer13421]

I am involved with Boy Scouts at the Council and District level, having been an assistant scoutmaster with a troop. Boy Scouts has very good training for adult volunteers. The training can get someone started on developing outdoor skills. There are many adult volunteers who will work with leaders and units to improve outdoor skills. However, being a Boy Scout leader means volunteering, and Scouts has little ability to require a particular leader to take a training course. The good news is that the vast majority of leaders want to be good at it, and are eager to learn in formal and informal settings.

Nearly every Scout Council sponsors High Adventure camping, that is, back packing or canoeing. Staff knows what it is doing. Most Councils sponsor expeditions to the Philmont Scout Ranch near Cimarron, New Mexico, where Scouts backpack for 11 days. I have lead two trips to Philmont. The adults knew what they were doing, and we spent six months preparing the Scouts.

Councils are divided into Districts. Each district sponsors a monthly meeting of leaders called Roundtables. Roundtables have programs which might include reviewing the voluminous rules of BSA, or a presentation on a topic such as backpacking, canoing, land navigation, etc. If you would like to help, offering to put on a presentation in some topic you know something about would be much appreciated. Contact the Boy Scout Council for your area, listed in the phone book, and ask for the name of the Commissioner for the District you are in.

 

[Jaytrek57]

Further YOP Clarification

Brent

I think you may be confusing YOP's Outdoor Leadership Training with the Mountain Leadership School. YOP starts the training at the AMC Cold River Camp. All groups end at Lonesome. We never go near PNVC.

and to be honest I went under someone else's name because they could not go.

I do hope at least you changed the information on the medical forms.

On a side note: I noticed in your bio you are with a BGC. I run the Dorchester club. Perhaps a cross club adventure at some point?

Peace.

 

[Puck]

I had worked at a Scout camp in Vermont. So for one summer I saw troops from all over the state come in giving me an opportunity to see the scout leaders in action. some were incredible. These men truley loved working with boys. Thier dedication and concern had a huge effect on the troop. This wasduring the 70s. On the other hand some of the leaders were abusive and demeaning to the boys. Many of the boys did had neither opportunity nor support from thier families to partake in outdoor activities. BSA was crucial in giving these boys a chance.
Many of the troops recieved some money from thier sponsor and had very strong committees. Some did not have that type of support and was using gear that was army issue from WWI. Regardless of funding the adult leaders were the largest factor for the success of the troop.

 

[Nessmuk]

There are many adult volunteers who will work with leaders and units to improve outdoor skills. However, being a Boy Scout leader means volunteering, and Scouts has little ability to require a particular leader to take a training course.

Nearly every Scout Council sponsors High Adventure wilderness camping, that is, back packing and canoeing. Staff knows what it is doing.

Each BSA resident summer camp with a High Adventure program in the Adirondacks employs trained trek leaders. These leaders (called Voyageurs) go through a comprehensive 8 day training program at the BSA National Camping School (NCS) Northeast Region, before they are turned loose to lead scouts into the wilderness. This training was started more than 20 years ago when the scouts were nearly banned from camping in the Adirondacks due to real and perceived abuses. BSA National is in the process of adapting this Adirondack specific regional training to a national course. A new recent development now also requires a LNT trainer on camp staff. We are trying to incorporate LNT as a part of the NCS training program.

Yes, it is difficult to require volunteer leaders to be fully knowledgeable in wilderness skills and ethics before treading into the wild. But training opportunities are available, and many caring individuals are attempting to offer various levels of training as cost effectively as possible.

 

[tonycc]

As a scout leader, currently involved with a Venture Crew specializing in high adventure, I think I have seen the entire gambit. My crew, and many others, take pride in LNT ethics, including our behavior on the trail. Boy Scouts are notoriously known as being very loud, not my crew.

While LNT and other modern concepts are being taught in training, the biggest problem I see are with the leaders who remember the good old days when they were kids. Fortunately, the word is spreading and currently unacceptable behaviors are decreasing. It takes time to get complete turnover of personel and experiences.

There is still no better program that I know of that is so accessible and provides personal development and leadership skill development in an outdoors setting. The boys in my crew or more than able to plan and lead a wilderness expidition without any support. If only it would be more open to girls.

Tony

 

[Ridgewalker]

The Boy Scouts are a wonderful orgainzation and as a full scout/scouter I find the sucesses of the troop hang on the parents involvemnt and heart in it. A 3rd of the dad in the troop are Eagles and some made it as far as Star or Life, Some are dads that want to be with sons and have a love of hiking and camping.
The groups that any of you see out in the woods as disfuctional and using cell phones and walkie talkies are a poor example to the public. The troop leaders have trained out boys in LNT and being kind to hikers. When we were out in Philmont we had to wear out uniforms on the plane. The only time we have to wear out uniforms is when we travel via car or plane. This is so everyone is conspicous and not in regular clothes. We wear non cotton camping and use packs and state of the art tents.
It is unfortuante that the troops out into woods are making a bad impression of themselves. I'm not making acusing against other troops of being not up to par with other troops but just stating my opinion and thoughts on it.

 

[Tramper Al]

Scouts

LNT is an important issue for anyone going into the woods, no question.

But isn't the real 'problem' with the Boy Scouts their policy of exclusion?

BSA v. Dale

 

[jbrown]

I have always remembered one phrase that was in my boy scout manual. A caption under a picture of boys cleaning up a campsite read, "Let noone say, and say it to your shame, that all was beauty here before you came." It only takes a few inconsiderate people to give the rest a bad name. Reference dog leash threads, bear canister threads, ranger hating threads, red sox threads...well not that last one. One bad apple... A little leaven...

 

[JackH]

scouts

I have also been involved in scouting for years and have seen some pretty horrific behavior in the woods over the years. BSA is a conservative organization that is sometimes slow to change with the times. Many of the problems with scouts in pristine environments result from teaching / training activities that normally occur in Scout camps. In these camps young scouts build confidence and leadership skills through activities that involve firemaking skills, open camping and pioneering. The system is proven in terms of developing young men toward the aims of scouting but, unfortunately, many adult leaders are not as knowledgable in teaching LNT, hiking ettiquette and climbing . These adult volunteers have diverse backgrounds and a driving interest in teaching these young people. I would suggest that if you find scouts doing something inappropiate you should bring it to their attention. Our troop often would review a trip for just such advice and discuss it.

Reminds me of an embarassing story... once, in the early 70's, when I just began to hike I put out a cigarette and failed to pick up the filter and got such a lecture on the time it took that filter to decompose and how would I like to see that hiking up the trail etc.etc. that I not only never littered again but I think I stopped smoking shortly thereafter!

 

[omegaman]

As a Scout a long time ago and a scoutleader now, My observation is that the BSA is starting to do more toward formally including LNT into its programs. As a second cycle Cub Scout leader, I know the BSA has instituted a nw LNT program where Scouts of all ages can earn a patch. See this link http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/21-105/

This year I am a webelos II leader (10 yr olds) and LNT is part of the activity pin called Outdoorsman.

As far as leaders being untrained are concerned- That is a possibility that exists. With youth protection rules, more adult leadership is required so often on camping trips you might get a dad that might enjoy the outdoors but hasn't really been educated on LNT coming along.