Garmin Mapping GPS's - yet more Qs

[Amicus]

I've seen these in action a few times now on hikes with satisfied owners and liked what I saw, so I'm ready to get one for myself. While I am ignorant on matters technical, not just as to GPS's but as to software in general, I have attempted to educate myself by reading past threads here and some other stuff on the Web, and by discussing various points with a few owners. I still have a few questions that folks here may have answers to.

1. Mapping software? One very experienced user of a GPSmap76Cx who does great things downloading his tracks onto all sorts of maps recommends that I also acquire the Fugawi Global Navigator Ver. 4.5, about which he raves. I gather it won't do anything to make the little Garmin topo maps, criticized except for their National Parks series, look better on a hike, but will permit better (a) advance planning through more accurate waypoints and (b) after-the-fact transferring of your tracks to all kinds of other maps, including 3D. He says that the Maptech Terrain Navigator is similar but more limited. Any Fugawi Navigators out there?

2. 60 vs. 76? I know these have the same insides and that the 76 is favored by sailors, in part because it floats, while hikers generally prefer the 60 because it is more compact and maybe rugged. My experienced friend is a hiker, not a sailor, but still favors the 76 because, he tells me, it has a bigger screen, for better viewing. I haven't been able to make a comparison because no store I've found around here carries both. Any views?

3. "Cx" v. "CSx"? I thought I could save a few dollars by omitting the "S", which means only that the unit includes a compass and barometric altimeter, since I have good ones already. Another friend suggests the extra expense may still be worthwhile, however, for bushwhacks where you're stuck in thick stuff and want to get a reliable "Go To" directional arrow to a waypoint. (Models without a compass only give you that when you are moving.) Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance to any who enlighten my darkness.

 

[DougPaul]

1. Mapping software? One very experienced user of a GPSmap76Cx who does great things downloading his tracks onto all sorts of maps recommends that I also acquire the Fugawi Global Navigator Ver. 4.5, about which he raves. I gather it won't do anything to make the little Garmin topo maps, criticized except for their National Parks series, look better on a hike, but will permit better (a) advance planning through more accurate waypoints and (b) after-the-fact transferring of your tracks to all kinds of other maps, including 3D. He says that the Maptech Terrain Navigator is similar but more limited. Any Fugawi Navigators out there?

I have no experience with the Fugawi product. In general, the third-party software packages can exchange waypoints, routes, and tracks with the GPS. They generally come with DRG maps and DEMs. National Geographic TOPO! and Maptech Terrain Navigator are popular. (I have NG TOPO! Northeast.)

Only the Garmin mapping products will allow you to load maps into the GPS. Thus you will most likely want the US Topo (100K) mapping product and/or one or more of the National Park Topo (24K) mapping products. They come with Mapsource, Garmin's program for interfacing with the GPS. Garmin's maps are DLGs.

DRG=Digital Raster Graphics (images of paper maps, pretty but can only be displayed at a narrow range of scales)
DLG=Digital Line Graphics (not as pretty, but can be displayed over a wide range of scales)
DEM=Digital Elevation Map (typically at a 30 or 90 m resolution)

No matter which maps you have loaded in your GPS, you will still want paper maps. The GPS gives a small "window" on a large map. OK for displaying the immediate vicinity, but inadequate for overall route planning.

FWIW, I have Garmin US Topo 2008, US TOPO 24K National Parks East, and a discontinued US road map. For quite a while, I was able to get along quite well (both hiking and driving) with just an earlier US Topo product--if you get only one, I suggest US Topo 2008. (A 100K GPS map is adequate when used in conjunction with an appropriate paper map.)

2. 60 vs. 76? I know these have the same insides and that the 76 is favored by sailors, in part because it floats, while hikers generally prefer the 60 because it is more compact and maybe rugged. My experienced friend is a hiker, not a sailor, but still favors the 76 because, he tells me, it has a bigger screen, for better viewing. I haven't been able to make a comparison because no store I've found around here carries both. Any views?

The debates over this have been endless. Ultimately, it comes down to personal choice--some people prefer buttons above the display, some prefer below. And it is my understanding that the displays are actually identical--there are basically no meaningful differences except for the package. (The larger volume of the 76 allows it to float.)

3. "Cx" v. "CSx"? I thought I could save a few dollars by omitting the "S", which means only that the unit includes a compass and barometric altimeter, since I have good ones already. Another friend suggests the extra expense may still be worthwhile, however, for bushwhacks where you're stuck in thick stuff and want to get a reliable "Go To" directional arrow to a waypoint. (Models without a compass only give you that when you are moving.) Any thoughts?

IMO, the important part of the S package is the altimeter. The compass requires recalibration every time you change the batteries and isn't all that accurate. It also isn't very good for sighting. (I carry a Silva Ranger CL sighting compass--more accurate, no batteries, and better sighting.) The GPS will happily give me a heading which I can follow/sight more accurately with the mechanical compass. And if I are trying to conserve the batteries, I just get the heading from the GPS, turn it off, and use the compass.

The altimeter is very accurate when autocalibrated from the GPS and means that I don't have to carry my mechanical altimeter (a fairly heavy Thrommen). (A non-S GPS will give you a GPS altitude with a ~20 m vert accuracy.)

Doug

 

[Viewseeker]

I really like my vista CX, just because it is small has everything i need ever on it. I also installed metroguide so i can use it as a car gps...And the new ones with the HCX(high sensitivity) my buddy has and can get a signal almost in his basement so really no chance even in dense woods will you lose signal. Im not stuck on needing a large screen cause most times I have it zoomed down and lets just say it works for me..id think of upgrading to the hcx but then you cant share software as they have lock codes from what i hear. Theres my two cents

 

[DougPaul]

.And the new ones with the HCX(high sensitivity) my buddy has and can get a signal almost in his basement so really no chance even in dense woods will you lose signal. Im not stuck on needing a large screen cause most times I have it zoomed down and lets just say it works for me..id think of upgrading to the hcx but then you cant share software as they have lock codes from what i hear. Theres my two cents

These days, buying a "high sensitivity" (H on many Garmin models) is a no brainer--the performance difference in marginal conditions is dramatic.

Some people need larger screens. For instance, I am near-sighted without my glasses and can read the small displays when I am standing still. However, I am a bit far-sighted with my glasses on and have difficulty focusing on the GPS screen when driving. There is also another issue--number of pixels, regardless of the physical size of the screen. More pixels and color increase the amount of information that can be displayed.

These days, the Garmin road maps which allow auto-routing in the car come with one lock. (They used to come with 2 locks.) Thus if you wish to install the maps on a second GPS, you will need to buy another lock. (The locking requirement seems to come from the map suppliers, not the GPS manufacturers.) I bought the last non-locked road map product (Metroguide v4, discontinued) a few years ago--it may be getting a bit old, but I prefer that to dealing with and paying for more locks.

Doug

 

[Amicus]

Doug Paul:

Thank you for all the excellent information - I was hoping you'd weigh in. It may be that Fugawi software's advantages relate to sophisticated uses I'd never use. The fellow I know who praises it uses it, for instance, to download aerial photos he takes (as he flies his own plane), on which he plots waypoints and routes which he then uploads to his Garmin map76Cx. I won't need that ability.

For myself, I'm more concerned with how useful the GPS will be on bushwhacks, most of them outside the White Mt. NF, than with clever things I can do with tracks and waypoints before and after (although that might be fun). For that reason, and based on some additional info I got by PM, I'm reconsidering whether the DeLorme PN-20 might be a better choice than any Garmin. Certainly it wins hands-down on maps, since it has the 1:24 USGS maps for the whole country.

I'd ruled it out because I'd read a couple of suggestions that it did not track as well as the Garmin "x's", but I note SAR-EMT40's report in a prior thread that any such advantage is, at most, slight. Since he has used both models a lot, I attach a lot of weight to his view. Still, I know of many hikers with Garmins and only a couple with DeLormes, which makes me also wonder how vigorously DeLorme will support and improve its model.

I should note that I have always taken a good paper map on all hikes, except for trails I already knew well, and that won't change. GPS would be merely a fun navigation supplement and recording device.

Viewseeker: Good points, but I have a built-in GPS Navigator in my car, so am interested only in hiking utility.

 

[DougPaul]

For myself, I'm more concerned with how useful the GPS will be on bushwhacks, most of them outside the White Mt. NF, than with clever things I can do with tracks and waypoints before and after (although that might be fun). For that reason, and based on some additional info I got by PM, I'm reconsidering whether the DeLorme PN-20 might be a better choice than any Garmin. Certainly it wins hands-down on maps, since it has the 1:24 USGS maps for the whole country.

The devil is in the details...

One thing that I find to be very important is the ability to view the maps (and presumably also aerial photos) at a wide range of scales. This can only be done effectively with DLGs--not photos or DRGs. You should check to see exactly what the PN-20's capabilities are in this department.

Also, while 25K scale topos may be available for the entire country, check the cost--it is IMO rather high if you wanted a significant area. And note that 25K scale maps take up ~16 times as much space as 100K scale maps (ie ~46GB for a Garmin topo US 24K). (Just checked the Delorme web site--they aren't very good at giving specs, but reading between the lines suggests that their topo map product is 100K scale, with the option for free download of $100 worth of 24K maps, images, etc)

FWIW, there are some open-software style efforts which have produced 24K Garmin-compatible maps for some areas.

I'd ruled it out because I'd read a couple of suggestions that it did not track as well as the Garmin "x's", but I note SAR-EMT40's report in a prior thread that any such advantage is, at most, slight. Since he has used both models a lot, I attach a lot of weight to his view. Still, I know of many hikers with Garmins and only a couple with DeLormes, which makes me also wonder how vigorously DeLorme will support and improve its model.

IIRC, SAR-EMT40's report is a bit old. You might ask him for an update.

The Garmins are certainly well-tested by the hiking community. I have certainly been in places where other GPSes did not track nearly as well as the 60CSx. (Check out the GPS-bakeoff threads: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14406 and http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15025.)

I have used a 24K paper map in conjunction with the GPS with a 100K map. IMO, the combination works quite well. A 24K map in the GPS is nice, but IMO, not necessary if you have a 24K paper map. Sometimes it has too much detail to read easily on the small screen.

Good GPSes (plus their maps) are expensive little beasts--learn all you can before buying.

Doug

 

[Dugan]

Also, while 25K scale topos may be available for the entire country, check the cost--it is IMO rather high if you wanted a significant area. And note that 25K scale maps take up ~16 times as much space as 100K scale maps (ie ~46GB for a Garmin topo US 24K). (Just checked the Delorme web site--they aren't very good at giving specs, but reading between the lines suggests that their topo map product is 100K scale, with the option for free download of $100 worth of 24K maps, images, etc)

The website prices are high, yes, but after buying mine I received a half-price offer on various things, including the USGS quads. I was able to pick up all of the New England states (except Maine, where I don't hike much anyway) for $99.99. That's 1:24k - with a better quality map - for only about $20 more than Garmin's lower quality much more limited coverage National Parks maps. Considering almost all of my hiking is outside national parks, Garmin's maps are next to useless for me.

One thing that I find to be very important is the ability to view the maps (and presumably also aerial photos) at a wide range of scales. This can only be done effectively with DLGs--not photos or DRGs. You should check to see exactly what the PN-20's capabilities are in this department.

What are the Garmin capabilities for this? It is my understanding that there is no aerial imagery that can be loaded to the GPS unit. With DeLorme, several types of aerial imagery are available. These images may be worked with both on computer and can be loaded to the GPS unit as well.

The Garmins are certainly well-tested by the hiking community. I have certainly been in places where other GPSes did not track nearly as well as the 60CSx. (Check out the GPS-bakeoff threads: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14406 and http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15025.)

True, and one reason I nearly went for the Garmin instead. I can say, that in my actual real-life use, my DeLorme seldom loses signal and in areas that I've created tracks multiple times, all tracks match very closely.

I have used a 24K paper map in conjunction with the GPS with a 100K map. IMO, the combination works quite well. A 24K map in the GPS is nice, but IMO, not necessary if you have a 24K paper map.

Yes, one should never venture out without a paper map and compass. I can't speak for Garmin here, but the DeLorme is great since I can create the route on my computer, print the appropriate USGS sections with the route shown, then also load those sections to the PN-20.

Sometimes it has too much detail to read easily on the small screen.

I have not found this to be the case. There's no more detail than we're used to seeing on USGS quads. There's been one instance, in western MA, that we popped out on a dirt road not quite where we wanted to be. We knew the trail crossed the road - but where? Turn left or right? The PN-20 was able to show us that we wanted to turn right to regain the trail - a landmark that wasn't depicted on the Garmin maps (checked later that day by demoing a Garmin 60CSx at EMS). With the Garmin, we'd've been exactly where we were with just map & compass - wondering which way to turn.

Good GPSes (plus their maps) are expensive little beasts--learn all you can before buying.

Agreed. Everyone's wants and needs are different. There's a lot of reasons both for and against both Garmin and DeLorme. If only you could get the superior chipset of the Garmin, with the superior maps of the DeLorme...

Disclaimer: I have not yet explored using the aerial imagery available with the DeLorme. Like the USGS quads, these are available in bulk at a steep discount. It's my understanding that these too can be loaded to the PN-20 (or its card). So, for any hike, you could create a map package that would include the base map, the USGS quads, and your choice(s) of aerial imagery.

 

[NeoAkela]

I'm not much into the technical aspect either, but I have been very happy with my Garmin GPSMap 60csx for the last two years. The Mapsource US Topo and National Parks 24K topo have seemed spot-on with the actual topography lines... not so much with the actual location of trails. Most hiking trails are in there, but my actual hiking track usually runs in and out of the mapped trail. The old Osseo trail is on the GPS map, so I am guessing the trail info is many years old!

Good points for this tool are that in two years of hiking in all seasons, I have yet to loose a satellite lock no matter where I go hiking in NH or Maine. I usually keep the GPS in a side pouch of the pack so I can check to see how many more vertical feet I have left to a summit, and even at the bottom of a pack it keeps an accurate track.

I always bring a regular paper map and compass... the Garmin is mostly used by me for recording a hiking track that I can later load into my Google Earth map (that is getting bigger and bigger!) Trying to navigate solely on the little screen would be difficult to say the least, but using the screen info and coordinates to cross-reference with the paper map works just fine. It is really handy for bushwhacks, where you can get all your waypoints programed previously from Google Earth or some other source, then use the course directional arrow to lead you there. Or see how close you were to a slide or other geographical feature that you can go back to another day. It has a point-and-shoot feature where you can point it at a visible distant location, guess the distance, and set a waypoint for a course to that location.

It can also be used as a source of light in the dark - just like a cell phone! (Just kidding!) But it does come in handy getting back to the car off-trail in twilight!

Hope this rambling offers something - the altimeter and compass do come in handy, so I would recommend the "s"... The 60 does fine for me, but I know that every year there will be a higher number with more features, so I guess it is all in what someone wants to spend. And as previously mentioned, Garmin only allows it's own mapping software within it's units... however, you can save recorded information in gpx format which you can then use in other mapping and geographic software.

 

[DougPaul]

The 60 does fine for me, but I know that every year there will be a higher number with more features, so I guess it is all in what someone wants to spend. And as previously mentioned, Garmin only allows it's own mapping software within it's units... however, you can save recorded information in gpx format which you can then use in other mapping and geographic software.

The more recent Garmin Colorado and Oregon also take some features away--a number of people still prefer the 60/76CSx.

And you can use GPSBabel http://www.gpsbabel.org for GPS file format conversion.

Doug

 

[J.Dub]

These days, buying a "high sensitivity" (X on many Garmin models) is a no brainer--the performance difference in marginal conditions is dramatic.

I believe the "x" in Garmin model names means that it has a a removable memory card, rather than high sensitivity.

I'm not much into the technical aspect either, but I have been very happy with my Garmin GPSMap 60csx for the last two years.

I just got one last week for my big 40th birthday, and got to test it out this weekend when I took my kids to the ADK's to hike their first 46ers. It's a pretty slick unit.

I always bring a regular paper map and compass... the Garmin is mostly used by me for recording a hiking track that I can later load into my Google Earth map (that is getting bigger and bigger!) Trying to navigate solely on the little screen would be difficult to say the least, but using the screen info and coordinates to cross-reference with the paper map works just fine. It is really handy for bushwhacks, where you can get all your waypoints programed previously from Google Earth or some other source, then use the course directional arrow to lead you there.

Same here. IMO, the GPS is a tool to use in addition to, not in lieu of, the standard map and compass. Am looking forward to having it along when I start bushwhacking some of the trail-less 46ers.

How do you go about recording a hiking track -- do you simply mark waypoints every so often as you're hiking?

Or see how close you were to a slide or other geographical feature that you can go back to another day.

The 60CSx (and, I assume, other models) have a neat "Relocate Here" function, which I used this weekend. I input the UTM coordinates for Cascade and Porter summits from the topo map in an old version of TOPO! that I use. Once at the summits, I used the "Relocate Here" function to update the coordinates to reality, since clicking on a point on a 24K map won't give you one meter accuracy.

 

[DougPaul]

I believe the "x" in Garmin model names means that it has a a removable memory card, rather than high sensitivity.

Oops--you are correct. "h" indicates high sensitivity. (There are also a number of high sensitivity models which do not have the "h" in their model name. And some models with removable memory cards without the "x" in their names. You just have to read the detailed specs.)

How do you go about recording a hiking track -- do you simply mark waypoints every so often as you're hiking?

Go into the main_menu>tracks and turn on track recording. Also under setup, set wrap_when_full, auto, normal. IIRC, the track will display by default. (If not, turn it on under map setup.)

When you get back, you can transfer the track from the GPS to your computer and view it in Mapsource or TOPO!

The 60CSx (and, I assume, other models) have a neat "Relocate Here" function, which I used this weekend. I input the UTM coordinates for Cascade and Porter summits from the topo map in an old version of TOPO! that I use. Once at the summits, I used the "Relocate Here" function to update the coordinates to reality, since clicking on a point on a 24K map won't give you one meter accuracy.

If you have NG TOPO! or a Garmin Mapsource topo (US or 24K) map, you can set waypoints and routes on the computer and transfer them electronically. Much easier than doing it through the front panel.

You won't get 1 meter accuracy from a consumer GPS. 5-10 meters, maybe.

You can also place a waypoint at the current location by pressing the "mark" button.


Take some time and play with it. Read the manual* and search through the menus (the manual doesn't cover everything). A GPS is a complicated little beast and you are better off setting modes and learning how to use it when you do not actually need it. Check the software version and, if need be upgrade it. (Current versions: software: 3.70; GPS (chipset) sw version: 2.90) The upgrades are available from the Garmin website.

* The online versions of the manuals are generally more up-to-date than the paper versions.

Doug