Have you had enough to drink?

[SAR-EMT40]

I always carry a box of Jello in the winter as part of my basic supply.

One caveat I should mention. I don't just carry this in the winter. People, especially sick and/or injured people, can easily get hypothermic laying on the ground or being wet for extended periods of time during the spring and fall and yes, even during the summer. I actually carry a box all the time, I like strawberry best , not just in the winter.

Keith

 

[SAR-EMT40]

A few weeks ago, I was in the unfortunate situation of having 6 hours to hike with no water. I decided not to eat at all, so that the food's digestion would not take away my water... That, and the rubber band trick...

I don't know what your specific circumstances were Pete and I am not second guessing but I am curious. If you knew you could move for those 6 hours you might have been better off eating snow and having some food. If you know you can move, eating snow probably wouldn't hurt you as much as being dehydrated. Again, this is me spitballing without knowing the specifics. Maybe no snow to eat or other concerns that I don't know about?

Also what rubber band trick? I have heard of things with pebbles and a couple of things with rubber bands but which one are you talking about?

Keith

 

[erugs]

Do you have the citation? The only article I found was published in 2004, which seems a tad old.

I don't have the citation but will write to Professor Kenefick at UNH and get his input.

 

[DougPaul]

You are correct but it takes lots less water to get energy (short term) from simple sugars and carbs. Eating things like proteins and fats can get you very sick when dehydrated. Another nail in your coffin in those conditions. Simple sugars and water are absorbed in the stomach. Fats and proteins have to go through the intestines. At least that was what I was taught.

My info was from the context of desert survival when you have run out of water.

I know that digestion of fats and proteins fails had high altitude and one has to stick to carbs. Presumably related to the oxygen requirements for digestion.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

A few weeks ago, I was in the unfortunate situation of having 6 hours to hike with no water. I decided not to eat at all, so that the food's digestion would not take away my water... That, and the rubber band trick...

Several years ago I did a 25mi, 1800 vert ft, 17.5 hr BC ski. I had stayed well hydrated and had been peeing regularly until I ran out of water 6-8 mi (~2+ hr) from the trailhead. Don't remember if I stopped eating, but I just kept skiing. (Streams were sufficiently frozen that dipping water out of one would have been difficult.) The only thing that I noticed was that I stopped peeing. However, I suspect that my range was limited.

I always have some extra water back at the car...

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

One caveat I should mention. I don't just carry this in the winter. People, especially sick and/or injured people, can easily get hypothermic laying on the ground or being wet for extended periods of time during the spring and fall and yes, even during the summer. I actually carry a box all the time, I like strawberry best , not just in the winter.

Way back in winter school, hot jello was suggested as a good camping drink. Many found it too sweet for their tastes.

Nobody told us that there were studies backing it...

Doug

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Many found it too sweet for their tastes.

I agree. I wouldn't/don't use it for everyday use. In fact I only carry it for medicinal purposes.

Keith

 

[Zer0-G]

Good Thread....

Typically,only in the winter season, I drink full strength gatorade while backpacking. Not so much because I think it is good for me, actually it has way too much sugar for my purposes, but because it is tasty which encourages me to drink more. Additionally, to encourage drinking, I hang my bladder in a custom made bottle bag around my neck and inside my "jacket" and I clip the bite valve onto the strap connected to the bag inside of my "jacket". The bite valve is no more than a few inches away from my mouth for the whole trip and kept out of the freezing air and close to my Body heat. I find this very convenient and supports active hydration which is, as dicussed here, more challenging in the winter. Inside the jacket, nothing freezes and actually the fluid stays warmer and feels better going down than chilly fluids do. I do the same with my snacks. I keep them handy all day long in a pouch hanging inside my jacket. It keeps the food from freezing as well.

I find this approach is like dangling the carrot in front of the donkey and it supports me to get the fluids and solids I need to avoid bonking and to heighten my enjoyment.

You can pack all the water and food that is right and good for you no matter what it is, high tech or PB&J, but all too often I have seen people get dehydrated and go BONK because it is too inconvenient or too cold for them to stop, drop pack, get out the food/fluids eat/hydrate, pull on the pack and get walking again.

I have seen that play out WAY too many times. Never fails. There is always a few people on each trip I go on that fall into that trap.

My point is, make it as convenient as possible to get at your food/fluids/lifeline and you are way ahead of the curve.

 

[DougPaul]

Typically,only in the winter season, I drink full strength gatorade while backpacking. Not so much because I think it is good for me, actually it has way too much sugar for my purposes, but because it is tasty which encourages me to drink more.

The maximum amount of sugar in electrolyte drinks is ~8% because more will give you a stomach ache. Many electrolye drinks contain this maximum amount and thus may give you a stomach ache if combined with some foods. For this reason, many dilute their electrolyte drinks.

While one can dilute an electolyte drink, it is hard to alter the ratio of components. If one is sweating heavily, one might want a full amount of electrolyte (primarily sodium and potassium) but less sugar. There is a recipe for homemade electolyte in the thread "long distance nutrition": http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4914
If you use this recipe, you can alter the concentrations to suit your own needs.

In winter, I generally drink pure water, because I avoid sweating. If I sweat any significant amount, I add some electrolyte to my drink. (The fundamental purpose of the electrolyte drink is to replace the electrolytes lost in sweating.)

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

You will find it at your local grocery store under the trade name Jello.

Keith -

If you've ever taken Wilderness First Aid from SOLO they also urge people to carry Jello, not only because when added to hot water it's something most hypothermic people will drink, but it can be a life-saver if someone is unconscious from diabetic shock. You can rub the Jello on their gums as a way of getting sugar into their system. Of course, you could use plain sugar also, but the thinking is you're more likely to have Jello than just the sugar.

In terms of hydration - I need 2 liters of something (water in summer, honey-sweetened herb tea in winter) on the average day hike. I make sure I've downed the first liter about 2/3's of the way up the summit. Occasionally, and this happens more in winter for the reasons noted above, I'll find I'm nearly to the summit and have not drunk the liter, so I'll stop and polish it off, whether I "feel" thirsty or not.

In my experience, you're far more likely to crash from too little water than too little food. So, if you bonk - make drinking upwards of a liter a priority, and then have something to eat. In about 30 minutes you'll feel quite rejuvenated.

Also - in terms of electrolyte replacement - there was a thread here several months ago about Morton Lite Salt, which contains 1/2 the sodium but twice the potassium of standard table salt. I now carry some in an old film container, and when I'm sweating alot I'll take a couple of pinches. I used to do the Gatorade thing, but can't bring myself to any longer.

 

[hikerfast]

one thing i have started doing is starting to drink a quart of liquid about 10 minutes before i hit the trailhead and finishing it before i head up. usually water but others could drink whatever their pleasure. seems to make a huge difference for me. basicly its like adding another quart to your hiking days liquid immediately. real simple. the best method is to just bring another quart bottle and put it in the car when you head out, that way you make sure you do it each time.

 

[DougPaul]

Also - in terms of electrolyte replacement - there was a thread here several months ago about Morton Lite Salt, which contains 1/2 the sodium but twice the potassium of standard table salt. I now carry some in an old film container, and when I'm sweating alot I'll take a couple of pinches. I used to do the Gatorade thing, but can't bring myself to any longer.

Close:
table salt is 100% sodium chloride
Morton LIte Salt: about 50% sodium chloride, 50% potassium chloride

Search on "Morton lite salt". It will bring up this thread plus 4 more. The 4 have info on electrolyte replacement, including my recipe for electrolyte drink.

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Doug -

I think the FDA requires that table salt CONTAIN sodium cloride - around 98% if I recall, but that doesn't mean it doesn't contain other compounds as well, such as iodine, magnesium, calcium and anti-caking ingredients, most of which occur naturally. And, if you buy sea salt at the local coop, as we do, then there are probably other minerals as well.

It gets pretty confusing, especially when some research indicates that the potassium ingested in any way other than by food (bananas, spinach, orange juice, etc) simply isn't available for metabolism by the body. But, many of us still operate on the principle that "well, it can't hurt .." so we take our Gatorade, Morton Lite Salt, etc.

 

[Zer0-G]

In winter, I generally drink pure water, because I avoid sweating. If I sweat any significant amount, I add some electrolyte to my drink. (The fundamental purpose of the electrolyte drink is to replace the electrolytes lost in sweating.)

Doug

Interesting. Avoid Sweating, regulation of body heat, Vapor barriers,
(I am a Vapor Barrier believer and I use them extensively and one of the benefits of that is the ability of the body to maintain a micro-climate that promotes less sweating as a result of the moisture being held close to the body as a result of the Vapor Barrier. etc....) climate control...all well and good. Sugar content, bellyaches. All very interesting and I'm just not that scientific. All I know is what is too sweet for my taste, but given certain conditions, what I am more willing to drink. And, that's the key. I got to get fluids in and for me PLENTY of them.

I have at least three liters of water/fluids on me when I start and I just drink drink drink, regardless of how much I sweat. Usually to the point where I eliminate copiously and clearly.

Even though there is, believe it or not a serious condition that is caused by over-hydration - it was explained to me in my SOLO WFA training - rare but possible. I would be hard pressed to drink that much. (gee, I forget the details...)

In the summertime, I usually supplement part of my water intake with GU-20 throughout the day. It is not as sweet as Gatorade and it is very effective. But in the winter, not feeling as thirsty as other times of year, I just got to have that extra taste to inspire me to drink even when I am not feeling thirsty. I guess it's a pshycological thing.

 

[DougPaul]

I think the FDA requires that table salt CONTAIN sodium cloride - around 98% if I recall, but that doesn't mean it doesn't contain other compounds as well, such as iodine, magnesium, calcium and anti-caking ingredients, most of which occur naturally. And, if you buy sea salt at the local coop, as we do, then there are probably other minerals as well.

I was just trying to keep it simple and ignoring the impurities and minor ingredients.

My box of (iodized) salt says "salt, sodium silico aluminate, dextrose, potassium iodide".

My box of Morton's Lite Salt says "salt, potassium chloride, calcium silicate, magnesium carbonate, dextrose, potassium iodide". Must be iodized too.

My numbers were accurate within a few percent.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Interesting. Avoid Sweating, regulation of body heat, Vapor barriers, (I am a Vapor Barrier believer and I use them extensively and one of the benefits of that is the ability of the body to maintain a micro-climate that promotes less sweating as a result of the moisture being held close to the body as a result of the Vapor Barrier. etc....) climate control...all well and good. Sugar content, bellyaches. All very interesting and I'm just not that scientific. All I know is what is too sweet for my taste, but given certain conditions, what I am more willing to drink. And, that's the key. I got to get fluids in and for me PLENTY of them.

Way back in winter school I was taught to run slightly cool to avoid sweating (avoids water loss, electrolyte loss, and getting one's insulation damp). One loses a lot of water (no electrolyte) through the heavy breathing in the dry air. And in theory, a VB should reduce water and electrolyte loss.

If the drink is too sweet, you can reduce the amount of sugar if you make your own. Or dilute a commercial drink and add a bit of Lite Salt.

If you do the search on "morton lite salt" and read the threads, many of the details are covered.

I have at least three liters of water/fluids on me when I start and I just drink drink drink, regardless of how much I sweat. Usually to the point where I eliminate copiously and clearly.

One of the rules of thumb is to make sure that you pee at least .5 to 1 liter and the color is light straw to clear. Sounds like you are getting there... You might also be drinking a bit more than necessary, but that is generally better than too little. 1.5 liters of water is generally enough for me in winter and up to 3 (occasionally 4) liters in summer.

In the summertime, I usually supplement part of my water intake with GU-20 throughout the day. It is not as sweet as Gatorade and it is very effective. But in the winter, not feeling as thirsty as other times of year, I just got to have that extra taste to inspire me to drink even when I am not feeling thirsty. I guess it's a pshycological thing.

Flavor often helps one to drink enough. I just eat relatively normal food--haven't gone in for these high-tech foods like GU.

Doug

 

[Zer0-G]

Flavor often helps one to drink enough. I just eat relatively normal food--haven't gone in for these high-tech foods like GU.

Doug

There is a lot of good info in this thread. I should have been clearer. The GU-20 I referred to is actually a powder that mixes with water and is an electrolyte replacement type supplement. I don't go for the hi-tech foods either. Good old PB&J and Cheese and nuts etc is fine for me.

 

[rhihn]

The GU-20 I referred to is actually a powder that mixes with water and is an electrolyte replacement type supplement.

Do you know how this compares to Gatorade or other electrolyte replacement products (effectiveness, taste, cost, ease of use, etc.)?

 

[Zer0-G]

Do you know how this compares to Gatorade or other electrolyte replacement products (effectiveness, taste, cost, ease of use, etc.)?

Well, to tell you the truth, I switched Gu20 from Diluted Gatorade upon a recommendation of a friend. Cytomax was also recommended.

I reviewed the labels of both Gatorade and Gu20 and decided, based on my experience and knowledge of the subject, which could stand quite a bit more research to become expert, that Gu20 was a better fit for me. It has way less sugar than Gatorade. I try to avoid excess sugar as much as possible.

I also visited the website and got some additional information. Which I took with a grain of salt, no pun intended. We all know about advertising claims.

http://www.gusports.com/html/gu2o.htm

 

[DougPaul]

I reviewed the labels of both Gatorade and Gu20 and decided, based on my experience and knowledge of the subject, which could stand quite a bit more research to become expert, that Gu20 was a better fit for me. It has way less sugar than Gatorade. I try to avoid excess sugar as much as possible.

The basic purpose of the sugar in electrolyte drinks is to increase the speed of absorbtion of the water. It also has some fuel value (simple carbs).

Doug