Periwinkle
Active member
dug said:Oooh Lord, kumbaya.
Did I sing enough verses?
Hiking with your K9
- Thread starter Bristol
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Did I sing enough verses?
Dream Catcher
New member
Thank you for the superb advice on this post. I will now be even better prepared for hiking with my Zeus - the best dog in the world!
una_dogger
Well-known member
Its great that you are concerned about overdooing it.
Forced marches are not fun for dogs and all dog owners know that our dogs will follow us anywhere...just because they can do it doesn't mean they should do it--its up to us be aware of what we are asking of them, you are very wise to be considering these questions.
Edit:
I find myself sitting on the fence anxiously whenever one of these hiking with canine questions come up, mainly because I do not want to be percieved as preachy or to make anyone feel as though I am being judgemental of them. But I would like to attempt to contribute some of my thoughts and experiences which I feel may be of value to some.
I have had a dog at my side my entire life, like many of us. I had a dog who accompanied me to the farm everyday for six years who's only training consisted of "get in the truck" and "bring em in" for the horses. Throughout the years my love of dogs and outdoor sports has grown immensley, and there have been five dogs in my life through that evolution.
A few years ago I got very involved in dog sports, and many years ago was very involved with equine sports. Sports injuries and proper training and conditioning always seemed paramount when it came to horses, but it was only a few years ago that I really began to learn more about canine conditioning. I had never really considered hiking with canines a sport, until a trainer I was working with cautioned me about what I was asking of Terra. I had already had one dog die with me on the trail, and felt I was taking lots of safety precautions, but still the importance of canine nutrition and conditioning was something I would apply to the agility or herding ring, but not to my favorite past time of hiking.
The more and more I learned, the less and less I felt comfortable about in terms of the demands I was putting on my dogs while hiking. And those concerns lead me to seek out those same canine sports professionals who I chose to ignore before, and learn how to apply the principles of sports conditioning to hiking with canines.
I am not trying to dissuade anyone or judge anyone here, I just want to finally express my feelings on this topic, and feel that this board is ready to hear them and not judge me either.
There are things I did with my dogs in the past, even the recent past, that I would never ask of them today, even my rock solid sound dog, Terra. My guidelines for my own dogs, which are based on what I've learned about them as individuals and after xrays and evaluations done by a canine physical therapist, is that injury prevention is crucial. Dogs don't limp or show pain until its extreme. Unlike us, they don't complain about minor stiffness, aches and pains. They just keep going. For me, its become an extremely important factor in my relationship with my dogs that I tune in to their daily stress level, stretch them, and watch them for extremely subtle signs of unsoundness. I feel I owe it to them. Anytime I place my dog in a situation where they become hurt, stressed, or scared; I'm erroding thier trust in me.
I've hiked hundreds of miles with Terra, and I understand the feeling of accomplishment after a long hike, and how happy I am to share that with my dog. But I have had to ask myself, is my dog REALLY enjoying hiking 10-15-20 miles with me? Or is it just easier for me, or more enjoyable for me?? My honest answer to myself, given all that I have learned and come to understand, internalize, and integrate into my dog philosophy, is that is too far.
For me, for my dogs. High mileage, freezing weather -- I don't think they need that.
Just my 0.02. Take it as you will, its not meant as a judgement to anyone else.
Forced marches are not fun for dogs and all dog owners know that our dogs will follow us anywhere...just because they can do it doesn't mean they should do it--its up to us be aware of what we are asking of them, you are very wise to be considering these questions.
Edit:
I find myself sitting on the fence anxiously whenever one of these hiking with canine questions come up, mainly because I do not want to be percieved as preachy or to make anyone feel as though I am being judgemental of them. But I would like to attempt to contribute some of my thoughts and experiences which I feel may be of value to some.
I have had a dog at my side my entire life, like many of us. I had a dog who accompanied me to the farm everyday for six years who's only training consisted of "get in the truck" and "bring em in" for the horses. Throughout the years my love of dogs and outdoor sports has grown immensley, and there have been five dogs in my life through that evolution.
A few years ago I got very involved in dog sports, and many years ago was very involved with equine sports. Sports injuries and proper training and conditioning always seemed paramount when it came to horses, but it was only a few years ago that I really began to learn more about canine conditioning. I had never really considered hiking with canines a sport, until a trainer I was working with cautioned me about what I was asking of Terra. I had already had one dog die with me on the trail, and felt I was taking lots of safety precautions, but still the importance of canine nutrition and conditioning was something I would apply to the agility or herding ring, but not to my favorite past time of hiking.
The more and more I learned, the less and less I felt comfortable about in terms of the demands I was putting on my dogs while hiking. And those concerns lead me to seek out those same canine sports professionals who I chose to ignore before, and learn how to apply the principles of sports conditioning to hiking with canines.
I am not trying to dissuade anyone or judge anyone here, I just want to finally express my feelings on this topic, and feel that this board is ready to hear them and not judge me either.
There are things I did with my dogs in the past, even the recent past, that I would never ask of them today, even my rock solid sound dog, Terra. My guidelines for my own dogs, which are based on what I've learned about them as individuals and after xrays and evaluations done by a canine physical therapist, is that injury prevention is crucial. Dogs don't limp or show pain until its extreme. Unlike us, they don't complain about minor stiffness, aches and pains. They just keep going. For me, its become an extremely important factor in my relationship with my dogs that I tune in to their daily stress level, stretch them, and watch them for extremely subtle signs of unsoundness. I feel I owe it to them. Anytime I place my dog in a situation where they become hurt, stressed, or scared; I'm erroding thier trust in me.
I've hiked hundreds of miles with Terra, and I understand the feeling of accomplishment after a long hike, and how happy I am to share that with my dog. But I have had to ask myself, is my dog REALLY enjoying hiking 10-15-20 miles with me? Or is it just easier for me, or more enjoyable for me?? My honest answer to myself, given all that I have learned and come to understand, internalize, and integrate into my dog philosophy, is that is too far.
For me, for my dogs. High mileage, freezing weather -- I don't think they need that.
Just my 0.02. Take it as you will, its not meant as a judgement to anyone else.
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forestgnome
New member
Unadogger,
Nice post! No need to preface. No matter how sensible and realistic your comments, there will be those who will be illegitimately offended. No leader has ever enjoyed total acceptance; there will always be people too shallow to consider things outside of there own little desires.
Agreed about considering whether the dog really wants to do it, and being in tune with your dog's well-being. I wish all dog owners had your attitude. I once saw an elderly lab that had just climbed Flume Slide (?) to the summit of Mt. Flume. She was panting as if she was going to die as the owners high-fived each other and cracked beers.
Keep posting your thoughts; it may sink in on at least one human!
Happy Trails
Nice post! No need to preface. No matter how sensible and realistic your comments, there will be those who will be illegitimately offended. No leader has ever enjoyed total acceptance; there will always be people too shallow to consider things outside of there own little desires.
Agreed about considering whether the dog really wants to do it, and being in tune with your dog's well-being. I wish all dog owners had your attitude. I once saw an elderly lab that had just climbed Flume Slide (?) to the summit of Mt. Flume. She was panting as if she was going to die as the owners high-fived each other and cracked beers.
Keep posting your thoughts; it may sink in on at least one human!
Happy Trails
Una_dogger,
Excellent post. I think many of us who hike with our dogs have hopefully asked those same questions (or will). I certainly have come to realize over the years that my reasonably fit dogs have no problems with 5-10 mile hikes, but longer than that a lot depends on the conditions of the hike.
Regarding "does the dog really enjoy it" that's a tough one. One side of me says 8 miles on the familiar local MA conservation land is the same for the dog as climbing Lafayette (save the elevation gain.) On the other hand, they do seem to walk with an extra spark when they are in a new setting and mine have always liked getting to open views and ledges. ("like" as assessed by their overall attitude and eagerness). I guess the experiment is for me to quit work for a year and hike Lafayette with my dogs several times a week and see if they become bored!
Excellent post. I think many of us who hike with our dogs have hopefully asked those same questions (or will). I certainly have come to realize over the years that my reasonably fit dogs have no problems with 5-10 mile hikes, but longer than that a lot depends on the conditions of the hike.
Regarding "does the dog really enjoy it" that's a tough one. One side of me says 8 miles on the familiar local MA conservation land is the same for the dog as climbing Lafayette (save the elevation gain.) On the other hand, they do seem to walk with an extra spark when they are in a new setting and mine have always liked getting to open views and ledges. ("like" as assessed by their overall attitude and eagerness). I guess the experiment is for me to quit work for a year and hike Lafayette with my dogs several times a week and see if they become bored!
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una_dogger
Well-known member
I agree, Chip. The same trail in summer can become a vastly different experience for a dog in winter, or during a very windy day, etc. There are so many variables to consider!
banjolady
Member
have you all had experience car camping w dogs at sugarloaf or some of the other WMNF campgrounds? do u know of any restrictions on numbers of dogs?
unadog -I agree w u--my dogs hike daily but generally between 5-10 mi at a rather leisurely pace, with plenty of time to drink water and play. i had an older belgian sheepdog who hiked until age 15, but she was able to decide when she wanted to go out and when she wanted to skip the hike. cleo now at 12 always wants to go, and does just fine, but skips the extra miles the younger ones do by zooming back and forth and chasing each other in circles (o those herding dogs)--she sticks to the trail and wastes no effort. i will be taking them to the whites in aug--we will be doing very dog oriented hikes, not too long and we will avoid the bad rocks and do lots of swimming. i may leave cleo home tho, depending on her condition at the time. my dogs drink from streams every day here in harriman park ny and they seem immune so far...
unadog -I agree w u--my dogs hike daily but generally between 5-10 mi at a rather leisurely pace, with plenty of time to drink water and play. i had an older belgian sheepdog who hiked until age 15, but she was able to decide when she wanted to go out and when she wanted to skip the hike. cleo now at 12 always wants to go, and does just fine, but skips the extra miles the younger ones do by zooming back and forth and chasing each other in circles (o those herding dogs)--she sticks to the trail and wastes no effort. i will be taking them to the whites in aug--we will be doing very dog oriented hikes, not too long and we will avoid the bad rocks and do lots of swimming. i may leave cleo home tho, depending on her condition at the time. my dogs drink from streams every day here in harriman park ny and they seem immune so far...
una_dogger
Well-known member
Banjolady...
Just a thought...with dogs in your group numbering/outnumbering the humans, you may just wish to consider reserving several adjoining campsites, to create a buffer. I'm sure it will make things alot easier in terms of canine management, and I bet your campsite nieghbors will appreciate it, too.
I have no direct experience camping with a dog in the WMNF Camgrounds, I've only done the Garfield Tensite with a dog and some backcountry sites. Some hiker gatherings I've attended have been held at the KOA outside of Lincoln, and they were dog friendly, but only about three dogs were there. The dogs had to stay on leash, even in the sites, and barking was discouraged. The point really is, not to impact negatively another's wilderness experience. People generally don't want to hear barking dogs while in the wilderness, step in poop, get muddied by the paws of someone elses' dog, etc etc.
I think the restrictions and fees are worthwhile, the rationale being, if a pet owner is willing to pay extra, they are probably among the more enlightened pet owners.
August is a busy time for the Whites, if possible, a midweek trip may lesson the amount of people in the campgrounds and on the trails.
Keep in mind that the weather in the Whites in August is extremely variable -- high winds and sleet common above treeline.
Just a thought...with dogs in your group numbering/outnumbering the humans, you may just wish to consider reserving several adjoining campsites, to create a buffer. I'm sure it will make things alot easier in terms of canine management, and I bet your campsite nieghbors will appreciate it, too.
I have no direct experience camping with a dog in the WMNF Camgrounds, I've only done the Garfield Tensite with a dog and some backcountry sites. Some hiker gatherings I've attended have been held at the KOA outside of Lincoln, and they were dog friendly, but only about three dogs were there. The dogs had to stay on leash, even in the sites, and barking was discouraged. The point really is, not to impact negatively another's wilderness experience. People generally don't want to hear barking dogs while in the wilderness, step in poop, get muddied by the paws of someone elses' dog, etc etc.
I think the restrictions and fees are worthwhile, the rationale being, if a pet owner is willing to pay extra, they are probably among the more enlightened pet owners.
August is a busy time for the Whites, if possible, a midweek trip may lesson the amount of people in the campgrounds and on the trails.
Keep in mind that the weather in the Whites in August is extremely variable -- high winds and sleet common above treeline.
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banjolady
Member
thanks--yes we will definitely get a bunch of adjoining sites and make every attempt to keep the barking to a minimum, of course pick up and try to maintain mannerly conduct. we were there last aug and it was gorgeous. when do u think is the best time to go to the whites? i will be there in april too without dogs, from apr 11-15 which i know is a really bad time. I will be posting for hiking companions a bit closer to the time. a group of friends are renting cabins there and we'll be doing music. maybe you and your aussies could meet us in aug!!
una_dogger
Well-known member
Heh heh...I think anytime is a good time to be in the Whites!banjolady said:
Although I have taken both dogs on hikes there, I find focusing on my own hike and dealing with only one dog at a time works better for me, and thus, my current regime consists of no dogs or only one.
Maybe someone with multiple dog hike experience in the Whites can advise. Six or seven dogs in a group to me seems like alot for a place as crowded as the Whites, but I'm sure if you plan it well and get all parties on board, all will go well.
smitty77
New member
Excellent post! I think many of us can accurately gauge our dog's overall happiness while on the trail. Sure they could care less about lists or trails or book time. But they love to go, you can see it in their eyes. Last Saturday night I pre-loaded my gear in the truck for an early Sunday dayhike, and at 5am the dog was yipping in the kennel for me to get my butt out of bed and go play in the woods. I had slept-in the weekend before due to a fever, and she was making sure that didn't happen again.una_dogger said:
And the relationship isn't one sided, our dogs look out for us too. Two weeks ago we were hiking at Wachusett and part of my days plan was to use the auto road to get back to my truck, but the huge volume of people on the slopes at 9 am made it unsafe to cross the two ski trails that ran over the road. The alternatives were to ascend to the summit again and take a different route down or descend to the ski lodge and hike back up to the vehicle. I opted for plan B which had less elevation gain. To give the dog a treat I ran the last half of the descent on the packed trail to let her stretch her legs, not knowing how dearly I would pay for the extra effort. The climb from the ski lodge to the parking area is under a half mile, but with a fair amount of elevation gain. Being seldom used, the trail was unpacked with about 6-12" of fresh snow. About 2 minutes into it I bonked. I had only eaten a PopTart for breakfast which was usually sufficient for our short dayhikes, but not today. I was on empty, soaked from sweat, and it was cold (roughly 15o) and windy. My heart was racing and I was weaving all over. Anyone following my tracks would have thought I was drunk. As I plodded uphill the dog kept looking back at me as if to say "Come on big guy, you can do it. Follow me, it's not much further." She must have checked on me 20 times in the last quarter mile. I even sat down once in the snow to catch my breath and drink the last of my water, and the dog came over and nudged me to get up and get moving when I had lingered a little too long. Granted my situation was nowhere near life-or-death. I probably could have crawled to my vehicle in an hour or descended to the ski lodge and found a ride up the hill. But I finished the hike no more worse for the wear and with a new appreciation for my hiking partner. It's the first time I realized she looks after me as much as I do her.
Great post Una-Dogger. Keep spreadin' the doggy love!
The-Green-Man
Member
This is a great thread... Lots of good points.
I'll often take Trooper a.k.a "Mr Lover Man" (see my avatar) with me on short-medium day hikes. He's about 85 Lbs, and being a short muzzled dog he overheats easily. He also passes out when we get home and sleeps for about 12 hours!
I've noticed he has no interest in food while on the trail, and won't eat until he's had at least an hour of rest. He also consumes more water than I do! This prompted the purchase of a doggy packpack in which he carries his gortex boots, vet-wrap, gauze, treats, food and about 32 Oz of water (split evenly so his pack is balanced). I carry more water for him to limit the amount of weight he carries. Yes, he's spoiled...
I often wonder how I would carry him out if he were hurt and unable to walk. I doubt he'd stay put on a travois without sedation. Fear of injury and because he just doesn't get along with other dogs (and most people) is the reason I keep him on a leash. I always run into people who don't listen when I tell them he is not good with strangers; usually re-stating it as "He BITES" works. What really bugs me are the people that have their dogs off the leash but have no control over the dog. A couple years ago on Mt Major he ended up bloodying some poor pooch. This ~50 Lb adolescent dog ran up from about 30 yds off (while his owner watched) and proceeded to snap at Trooper. After a few seconds of me shouting to the guy to call off his dog (with no reaction) I lost my balance and Trooper lunged. I won't get into details but it was over pretty quickly. The stranger's dog was bleeding from the neck (lots of blood on white fur) and yelping. What did the other guy do after I told him that his dog was hurt? He kept right on walking and called to his dog to follow. No interest in the dog's well being and no concern over whether my dog was okay. The guy just kept walking...
There are words to describe people like that...
I'll often take Trooper a.k.a "Mr Lover Man" (see my avatar) with me on short-medium day hikes. He's about 85 Lbs, and being a short muzzled dog he overheats easily. He also passes out when we get home and sleeps for about 12 hours!
I've noticed he has no interest in food while on the trail, and won't eat until he's had at least an hour of rest. He also consumes more water than I do! This prompted the purchase of a doggy packpack in which he carries his gortex boots, vet-wrap, gauze, treats, food and about 32 Oz of water (split evenly so his pack is balanced). I carry more water for him to limit the amount of weight he carries. Yes, he's spoiled...
I often wonder how I would carry him out if he were hurt and unable to walk. I doubt he'd stay put on a travois without sedation. Fear of injury and because he just doesn't get along with other dogs (and most people) is the reason I keep him on a leash. I always run into people who don't listen when I tell them he is not good with strangers; usually re-stating it as "He BITES" works. What really bugs me are the people that have their dogs off the leash but have no control over the dog. A couple years ago on Mt Major he ended up bloodying some poor pooch. This ~50 Lb adolescent dog ran up from about 30 yds off (while his owner watched) and proceeded to snap at Trooper. After a few seconds of me shouting to the guy to call off his dog (with no reaction) I lost my balance and Trooper lunged. I won't get into details but it was over pretty quickly. The stranger's dog was bleeding from the neck (lots of blood on white fur) and yelping. What did the other guy do after I told him that his dog was hurt? He kept right on walking and called to his dog to follow. No interest in the dog's well being and no concern over whether my dog was okay. The guy just kept walking...
There are words to describe people like that...
KMartman
New member
The-Green-Man said:This is a great thread... Lots of good points.
I'll often take Trooper a.k.a "Mr Lover Man" (see my avatar) with me on short-medium day hikes. He's about 85 Lbs, and being a short muzzled dog he overheats easily. He also passes out when we get home and sleeps for about 12 hours!
I've noticed he has no interest in food while on the trail, and won't eat until he's had at least an hour of rest. He also consumes more water than I do! This prompted the purchase of a doggy packpack in which he carries his gortex boots, vet-wrap, gauze, treats, food and about 32 Oz of water (split evenly so his pack is balanced). I carry more water for him to limit the amount of weight he carries. Yes, he's spoiled...
I often wonder how I would carry him out if he were hurt and unable to walk. I doubt he'd stay put on a travois without sedation. Fear of injury and because he just doesn't get along with other dogs (and most people) is the reason I keep him on a leash. I always run into people who don't listen when I tell them he is not good with strangers; usually re-stating it as "He BITES" works. What really bugs me are the people that have their dogs off the leash but have no control over the dog. A couple years ago on Mt Major he ended up bloodying some poor pooch. This ~50 Lb adolescent dog ran up from about 30 yds off (while his owner watched) and proceeded to snap at Trooper. After a few seconds of me shouting to the guy to call off his dog (with no reaction) I lost my balance and Trooper lunged. I won't get into details but it was over pretty quickly. The stranger's dog was bleeding from the neck (lots of blood on white fur) and yelping. What did the other guy do after I told him that his dog was hurt? He kept right on walking and called to his dog to follow. No interest in the dog's well being and no concern over whether my dog was okay. The guy just kept walking...
There are words to describe people like that...
Sorry but I have to ask why he's not "good with other people"? Perhaps since he's not all that good with other people or dogs that it is YOU who should be paying closer attention, keeping "trooper" on a VERY short leash when other dogs are around that may not be leashed.
I too am a multiple dog owner and if my dogs even attempted to bite a human that wasn't hurting them, there would be serious hell to pay for them....WE CONTROL the DOGS...not the other way around..
M
The-Green-Man
Member
KMartman said:
I never said my dog bites: I said I tell people he does when they don’t listen and keep walking towards him/trying to touch him. We got him when he was a year old and had just been rescued from NY City. He was 40 Lbs underweight. We have no idea what his prior life was like. Most importantly: He’s never bitten anyone or tried to. His biggest problem is that he get’s anxious and jumps up on people in stressful situations (like when he meets them). We've worked very hard to train him and he's much better. Now, when we have people over he’s on their lap after an hour (provided they want him there).
You also don’t need to tell me about controlling my dog and paying attention to him: I always keep him on a short leash (as he was during the incident described above) and under control – for the very reason you mention. He’s met 100s of dogs while hiking and never had a problem that wasn’t resolved by pulling him away. The dog that was bitten was an adolescent, was not under control by it’s “owner”, and started attacking my dog: It should have been on a leash...
I have no problem with dogs off leashes provided the owner is in control and prepared to accept the fact that their dog could get hurt if it falls off a cliff or, say, starts a fight with another dog...
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KMartman
New member
The-Green-Man said:
Thats great...i love rescued dogs.....sorry to hear yours seems to have had a rough life before you.....I really meant no offense.....I just didn't like the idea that you tell people he bites....mine are a pain as well and tend to jump on newcomers, but it's certainly in happiness NEVER meanness. I don't like scaring people into thinking my dog "might" bite if approached....
You're right the adolescent dog shouldve been on a leash and after the incident the owner shouldve made sure his pup was ok, which evidentaly he/she couldve cared less about..
I like seeing dogs on the trail....if I dont mind the jumping may I approach your dog?
Does yours also go nuts when people come over for like the first 20 minutes then totally settles??? Thats EXACTLY what mine do....I've had both since 8 weeks...Again no offense meant, I wasnt trying to imply that you were a poor dog owner, just misunderstood the "he bites" thing...
M
una_dogger
Well-known member
Biting is a really tough situation. Green Man, great job for working on it ! And an even bigger pat on the back for talking openly about it. Most people would just go on denying thier dog had an issue instead of helping them with it.
Using a tight short rein on a fearful/stressed dog only reinforces thier anxiety. Project calm strength and your dog will gladly follow your cue.
Leash YES, loose and moving back away from the object of fear/aggression and in to you, focused on your calm voice. Moving away from the hot zone calmly and quietly can help your dog pick a better alternative than standing and fighting other dogs. And let me just say that I know how very difficult this is to be in the hot zone with a reactive dog, because I've owned them.
For those who want more info on this approach, check out a great little pamphlet called "Fiesty Fido: help for the leash aggressive dog" by Pat McConnell, PhD.
As for not liking humans, not all breeds are social. My dog Terra is wary of strangers but has learned that I make the decisions. My extremely human loving and sweet dog Orca actually nipped a hiker's gaitors as she passed by us once, while he was in a sit stay; and it really shocked me. Fortunatley, the woman was fine and extremely wonderful about the whole situation.
My vet couldn't believe he did it. I went to my vet half nervous that he would suggest euthanasia. My vet talked to me for about 45 minutes (YES!) about the whole scenario, stress and triggers. We finally came to the conclusion that he was stressed, and the closeness of the woman to me coupled with perhaps her trekking poles and his herding genes all came into play at that moment. Since them we have just graduated from another round of group obedience with our new trainer in Vermont, and she couldn't believe he ever bit anyone. To help him get past that negative moment, I have to be sure when I take him on local short hikes that we are on the lookout for people, give him plenty of happy praise and treats the job of coming off the trail and sitting by my side, so he can become desensitized and also give him the safe comfort zone that he needs not to be stressed. He simply needs alot more distance than the average dog. While he will never be a dog I can hike with on tougher hikes, he's learning to cope with things that scare him and learning that his teeth are not an option.
Make no mistake, all dogs will bite, if the situation arises and they feel its thier only option. Dogs are dogs.
My point here is that dogs are very subtle in thier behavior. Just watching them with one another, we can see how they make the teeniest little glances, shifts in balance/posture, etc to communicate -- its so subtle that sometimes they are already in really high anxiety/fear/stress mode by the time they are behaving overtly -- whether it be hackling, growling, barking, picking up a paw, putting a tail between thier legs...you all get the picture, you have dogs. And many of the retreiver breeds (sorry, I know they are really popular and I have owned and loved them too) by thier nature are very pushy and get right into other dogs (and people's) space. That alone can set alot of other breeds off. Add the tension of being on a leash, next to their owner, in unfamiliar territory, and maybe physically tired as well -- it adds up to alot of stress on a dog.
Dogs don't have to be running around like goofballs to have a good time. And there are many owners who think that if thier dog is charging all over the trail, that that is OK. The problem occurs when another hiker comes along, with or without a dog, and they have to deal with a crazy out of control dog. And so many people will inadvertently reward that crazy running around behavior, and the dogs just keep doing it to please them. A wise trainer once said, "we raise what we praise". If you want a dog you can control, don't talk to them or at them like a squeeky toy...! Unless you want them to
a. keep doing exactly what they are doing at that very moment
or
b. think you are the worlds biggest pushover and someone not to listen to
Green Man's dog may have been giving off all sorts of signals that a well socialized and trained dog would send to another and have them respected; and the other dog may have just blatantly ignored them all. Having an owner that yells, "its ok my dog is really friendly" in a high pitched happy human voice only makes it worse, either thier dog gets more stimulated and thinks his behavior is desirable by the owner, or thinks "yeah, my owner is such a pushover, I'm going to go alpha this guy ", or is just a clueless lunkhead and about to learn the hardway not to get in other dog's personal space. Being properly socialized as a pup with other ADULT dogs as well as puppies would have given that dog the proper experiences in a time in its life when adult dogs would give gentler lessons. But sadly, many puppy kindergarden classes are all about puppies having rough play with other puppies and no interaction with adult dogs. And in many cases, that's the only time in thier life they are actually in the training environment, when its the adolescent dogs that need it the most.
Its really hard to blame anyone in those situations, often its the dog who looks like he's doing the most harm that is just trying to get the other dog to back the hell off. As owners, we can help our dogs out with this. At least that's my goal! If the other owner was able to call thier dog off, all of that could have been avoided and Green Man's dog wouldn't have had to once again prove himself in the way he knows works for him.
Using a tight short rein on a fearful/stressed dog only reinforces thier anxiety. Project calm strength and your dog will gladly follow your cue.
Leash YES, loose and moving back away from the object of fear/aggression and in to you, focused on your calm voice. Moving away from the hot zone calmly and quietly can help your dog pick a better alternative than standing and fighting other dogs. And let me just say that I know how very difficult this is to be in the hot zone with a reactive dog, because I've owned them.
For those who want more info on this approach, check out a great little pamphlet called "Fiesty Fido: help for the leash aggressive dog" by Pat McConnell, PhD.
As for not liking humans, not all breeds are social. My dog Terra is wary of strangers but has learned that I make the decisions. My extremely human loving and sweet dog Orca actually nipped a hiker's gaitors as she passed by us once, while he was in a sit stay; and it really shocked me. Fortunatley, the woman was fine and extremely wonderful about the whole situation.
My vet couldn't believe he did it. I went to my vet half nervous that he would suggest euthanasia. My vet talked to me for about 45 minutes (YES!) about the whole scenario, stress and triggers. We finally came to the conclusion that he was stressed, and the closeness of the woman to me coupled with perhaps her trekking poles and his herding genes all came into play at that moment. Since them we have just graduated from another round of group obedience with our new trainer in Vermont, and she couldn't believe he ever bit anyone. To help him get past that negative moment, I have to be sure when I take him on local short hikes that we are on the lookout for people, give him plenty of happy praise and treats the job of coming off the trail and sitting by my side, so he can become desensitized and also give him the safe comfort zone that he needs not to be stressed. He simply needs alot more distance than the average dog. While he will never be a dog I can hike with on tougher hikes, he's learning to cope with things that scare him and learning that his teeth are not an option.
Make no mistake, all dogs will bite, if the situation arises and they feel its thier only option. Dogs are dogs.
My point here is that dogs are very subtle in thier behavior. Just watching them with one another, we can see how they make the teeniest little glances, shifts in balance/posture, etc to communicate -- its so subtle that sometimes they are already in really high anxiety/fear/stress mode by the time they are behaving overtly -- whether it be hackling, growling, barking, picking up a paw, putting a tail between thier legs...you all get the picture, you have dogs. And many of the retreiver breeds (sorry, I know they are really popular and I have owned and loved them too) by thier nature are very pushy and get right into other dogs (and people's) space. That alone can set alot of other breeds off. Add the tension of being on a leash, next to their owner, in unfamiliar territory, and maybe physically tired as well -- it adds up to alot of stress on a dog.
Dogs don't have to be running around like goofballs to have a good time. And there are many owners who think that if thier dog is charging all over the trail, that that is OK. The problem occurs when another hiker comes along, with or without a dog, and they have to deal with a crazy out of control dog. And so many people will inadvertently reward that crazy running around behavior, and the dogs just keep doing it to please them. A wise trainer once said, "we raise what we praise". If you want a dog you can control, don't talk to them or at them like a squeeky toy...! Unless you want them to
a. keep doing exactly what they are doing at that very moment
or
b. think you are the worlds biggest pushover and someone not to listen to
Green Man's dog may have been giving off all sorts of signals that a well socialized and trained dog would send to another and have them respected; and the other dog may have just blatantly ignored them all. Having an owner that yells, "its ok my dog is really friendly" in a high pitched happy human voice only makes it worse, either thier dog gets more stimulated and thinks his behavior is desirable by the owner, or thinks "yeah, my owner is such a pushover, I'm going to go alpha this guy ", or is just a clueless lunkhead and about to learn the hardway not to get in other dog's personal space. Being properly socialized as a pup with other ADULT dogs as well as puppies would have given that dog the proper experiences in a time in its life when adult dogs would give gentler lessons. But sadly, many puppy kindergarden classes are all about puppies having rough play with other puppies and no interaction with adult dogs. And in many cases, that's the only time in thier life they are actually in the training environment, when its the adolescent dogs that need it the most.
Its really hard to blame anyone in those situations, often its the dog who looks like he's doing the most harm that is just trying to get the other dog to back the hell off. As owners, we can help our dogs out with this. At least that's my goal! If the other owner was able to call thier dog off, all of that could have been avoided and Green Man's dog wouldn't have had to once again prove himself in the way he knows works for him.
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Dugan
New member
The-Green-Man said:
I used to do that for a Pyr rescue I had years ago. She spent the first 5 years of her life has a kennel dog. It was a wonderful kennel, but not nearly enough socialization. It left her incredibly shy and fearful of almost everything, for the rest of her life.
I always asked people not to approach her, because it made her afraid to the point of shaking. When necessary, I would block them away from her with my body. If they persisted, I would tell them "she bites".
It never ceased to amaze me that people would reach around me, or even through my legs, in an attempt to touch the dog I just said would bite. Maybe she wouldn't have bitten, but I was about ready to!
una_dogger
Well-known member
Dugan said:
Sigh...its amazing that dogs as a species even want to be around us.
The-Green-Man
Member
KMartman said:Thats great...i love rescued dogs.....sorry to hear yours seems to have had a rough life before you.....I really meant no offense.....I just didn't like the idea that you tell people he bites....mine are a pain as well and tend to jump on newcomers, but it's certainly in happiness NEVER meanness. I don't like scaring people into thinking my dog "might" bite if approached....
You're right the adolescent dog shouldve been on a leash and after the incident the owner shouldve made sure his pup was ok, which evidentaly he/she couldve cared less about..
I like seeing dogs on the trail....if I dont mind the jumping may I approach your dog?
Again no offense meant, I wasnt trying to imply that you were a poor dog owner, just misunderstood the "he bites" thing...
M
No offense taken.
Trooper has a sad story: He spent 1-2 weeks in an apartment in Manhattan with no food or water (other than that out of a toilet) after his first owner died. When the city came and got him he was 55 Lbs. He spent month in the pound (dropped to 46 Lbs in this time). The boxer rescue group we got him from drove from Albany, NY to get him and arrived less than an hour before he was due to be euthanized. He got his name after a NY State Trooper pulled the rescue’s van over on the trip back to Albany to enquire about the adoption process…
I agree: it really sucks to have to have tell people he bites etc when I get requests to touch him because he’s a really good dog with a big heart: He’s just too enthusiastic! He goes totally nuts when he meets people. After about an HOUR he starts to relax, but still gets really excited if the guests so much as look at him. I just worry about sue-happy folks getting scratched...
Anyway, happy trails.
The-Green-Man
Member
Dugan, I'd had people (adults at that) do the same thing: reach AROUND me to touch Troopy even after I've warned them. That's where the "he bites" comes in. Children seem to listen - it's the adults!
una_dogger, thanks for the advice and kind words. Trooper IS a problem dog, but we're working on it. I often wonder what would have happened if he hadn't been adopted by such understanding "parents".
The whole follow the leader/leader of the pack thing is huge. My wife and I have three horses and they really look to us for guidance when things happen: you know, a huge truck hits it's air-brakes, horse jumps, I don't react, horse calms down and eats grass... It's hard to learn, but really works. I'll try to get that pamphlet.
una_dogger, thanks for the advice and kind words. Trooper IS a problem dog, but we're working on it. I often wonder what would have happened if he hadn't been adopted by such understanding "parents".
The whole follow the leader/leader of the pack thing is huge. My wife and I have three horses and they really look to us for guidance when things happen: you know, a huge truck hits it's air-brakes, horse jumps, I don't react, horse calms down and eats grass... It's hard to learn, but really works. I'll try to get that pamphlet.
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