Keeping fingers warm?

[rambler]

Since Carole started with the toes, I'll mention fingers. Out two nights last week-end, I spent too much time with bare hands doing the fine motor tasks. Liner gloves bunch up the fit of my mittens, so I wasn't wearing them. I was also using the type of mitten with the flip-back top, that allows the finger tips to be free of cover. The second night messing around with my stove, I did notice the cold in my fingers, so I tried to leave the liners on. Not until I was back at my car the next day did I notice I had frostbite on the tips of most of my fingers. This might have been a serious problem if on an extended day trip. One tip of an index finger is purple. Looks like a big blood blister. A couple other fingers just have normal looking, but in one case, quite a large blister. What I learned, other than trying never to remove the liner or exposing skin, was to carefully look at one's finger tips or toes if you have felt them get cold, ie. in some pain, during the day. I did not notice the developing problem, even the purple, and when I felt the pain from cold, I thought I had covered my fingers back up quickily enough. Obviously, I let that happen too many times. Also as my finger tips were slowly going numb, I was probably able to keep them exposed even longer, making the problem worse. Soaking them in warm water when I got home, I noticed that even warm water felt very hot on the purple finger. Had one had to do the treatment in the field, one would have to be careful not to have the water get too hot. Reading up on frosbite on toes and fingers, I learned that dehydration can also contribute. Oh well, another winter spent learning from mistakes. I am going back to using my favorite rag-wool mittens, liner, and shell for the glove combination. Any other suggestions?

 

[Capoken]

mods

Perhaps you can spend some time modifying your stove and other gear so that they can be more easily operated with your gloves on. Having heard your story, that's exactly what I'm going to do. And practice going through the motions in my home with my gloves on so I can get a feel for it. Frostbite is serious business. What were the temps like when this happened?

 

[arm]

i carry hand warmers with me everywhere

they're called arm pits ... one of the warmest areas of your body

got frostbite on my right nipple once ... shirt got wet, and froze to my nipple ... nipple aches when it gets cold ... do they make nipple warmers ?

 

[rambler]

Thanks, Arm. That's the pits! 5:30AM temp was -19F. Suffice to say most of the weekend was sub-zero. Someone suggested wrapping the fuel bottle in foam or some insulation. This not to warm the fuel, but to protect your hand from touching freezing metal sides of the bottles. I did have my bottle wrapped.

 

[SherpaKroto]

Bigger mittens might help. I swear by the Fox River double Ragg Wool mitts under OR Goretex Overmitts.

While on Cascade in -15F and 50mph winds, I just HAD to take a few summit shots. I slid my camera lens off in my pocket, and removed my hand for no more than 10 seconds to take each shot. After 3 shots, my hand felt like it was covered with dead skin. I could still feel, but the outer layer was frozen solid. I've never felt anything like it. Fortunately, I slowly warmed my hand in my pocket, and was fine.

I'm not sure, but is it better to treat frostbite with cold or warm water? I thought cold, but like I said, I'm not sure.

rambler: glad to hear all digits are functioning well - it's been a cold one this year!

 

[jfb]

Recently I've been trying on gloves at every hiking store I visit to see which ones fit me best while providing good insulation and allow good dexterity so I don't have to take them off to do things around camp. Also, they need to dry easily and be comfortable under W/B shells. I found Fox River 3-layer wool gloves to be a very good choice and they only cost about $20. per pair. If you see some, they're worth a try.

I have had second-degree frostbite on all fingers once when rock climbing in February. Fortunately I only got the clear blisters that lasted a few weeks. I never noticed any long-term effects, and hope your fingers recover also.

 

[Blue]

Arm pits? no... give me the chemicals!

Over the past few very cold weeks, I have started to use
chemical hand and foot warmers religiously.

I have thick snowboarders gloves and when I've had to pull out my fingers to adjust something, I jam them back into the gloves and grasp onto the hand warmer. Instant relief!

The instructions mention something about not putting them next to your skin, but in -20 F temps, anything goes.

-Liza

 

[Oldsmores]

You might be a VFTT'er if...

... i got frostbite on my right nipple once ...

... you've ever frozen a nipple.

Arm, I just about spit my tea all over my monitor when I read that one!

 

[JohnL]

"do they make nipple warmers ?"

Go ahead. I dare anyone to answer that one.

JohnL

 

[teejay]

Frastbite treatment

Although it's been a while since I was an EMT, I think the treatment for frostbite is still the same. The affected "parts", Arm's included, should be warmed in body temperature or slightly warmer water. It helps a lot if your fingers are affected to have someone else help here to get the temperature right. While you thaw, it will really hurt. It's important not to rub the affected area at any time. Since there has actually been some freezing of the tissue, rubbing will cause more damage to the tissue until it's totally thawed. If caught very early when the freezing is still fairly near the surface, there's usually not even any blistering but you may be more sensitive to cold in the affected area for quite some time (years). When the freezing has gone deeper, as in rambler's case, there was probably some damage to the small blood vessels perhaps from being rubbed when frozen, which then bled when thawed and ended looking like a blood blister.

It's important to treat the frozen area soon. If it has gone deeply enough and there is little if any blood flow, the affected area will stay frozen. Left untreated more and more tissue will die and that's really serious. Can you say amputation? Maurice Herzog?

I frostbit a couple of fingers once skiing at -20 deg. with gloves that were all but missing those two fingers. I saw it early enough, got into the lodge and had a friend get some water just the right temperature. No blistering or lasting effects other than sensitivity, and that was 30 years ago.

This treatment may not be right for everyone. Ask your doctor before you get frostbite if this treatment is right for you.

 

[mink319]

Two weeks ago in -24F I wore wool undermitts with water resistant overmitts. Once I was moving around my hands were warm. After a few hours they started to sweat. Either those gloves are great, or my extreme tolerance for the cold was working. They are only $10 so check them out in the link below:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=65954
Dont let the "For Right Handers Only" scare you, thats only for trigger finger because the trigger finger is on the right mitten. When I hunt with them I just wear that on the left.

Sometimes I wear goose down mittens with those overmitts. That is very warm too. I never wear gloves in real cold weather, they just arent as good, if I am on snowshoes I find mittens work better for gripping the poles. I also use them for hunting because when I go to shoot I just slip my finger in the trigger finger, or I use the trigger finger to adjust my snowshoes.

Somehow I always manage to get by without taking off my mittens for things, it takes patience.

 

[Papa Bear]

An interesting question on the treatment of frostbite. Just today I was reading the First Aid chapter in the book MOUNTAINEERING The Freedom of the Hills. This is considered the bible for climbers and mountaineers. Their advice:

"Intervention in Frostbite starts with treatment of any hypothermia. Following that, the party must access whether field rewarming is appropriate or desirable. If there is any chance that a frostbitten body part, once thawed, might refreeze during the trip, the patient should be evacuated instead so that rewarming can be done in a medical setting. ... If a person has a frostbitten foot, the foot must be kept frozen. Once the foot has thawed, it will be impossible to walk on, and the patient will have to be carried out." [emphasis mine]

That was a surprise to me. It should be noted that this book is aimed at an audience who will undertake major treks, most often multi-day. So I guess it's like your frozen vegatables or frozen fish, once thawed, don't refreeze it or it will go bad.

Interesting ...
Pb

 

[Mark]

Googled "nipple warmers"

5770 hits.

Gotta love the Internet!

 

[JimB]

In the winter I always wear polypro glove liners. As soon as I go outdoors whether working, driving or whatever I have them on. They are very thin so most activities can be done without taking them off. Over the liners go a pair of insulated gloves with the pouch that folds over the fingertips to keep them warm. For me they keep my fingers warm as long as I keep moving and I can still do most activities with my skin covered up by folding back the cover. I keep a pair of waterproof XL mittens in my pack to go over the glove combo but have not had to get them out yet this year.

 

[JJwilliams]

i just read an interesting article on this brand new site. I haven't joined it yet as I have nohting to add or ask, like here I lurked for a while before pestering you all.

http://www.ny-outdoors.com/articles.html

he says warm water and expalins why.

 

[Couchybar]

Hello rambler. Sorry about your fingers. Had the same thing happen to a big toe
some 10 years back. The purple tip blistered then fell out leaving a cavity. A
deformity was visible for just two or three years but the toe remained quite sensitive
to heat and particularly cold for about seven years. Now all seems normal.

Funny thing is that when it happened the toe just felt cold and damp. There was no
complete loss of feeling and no real pain, that is until the toe was warmed at the end
of the day. I was using a chemical heating pad that probably increased perspiration
and boot/foot compression combined with the snowshoe binding. It was a solo climb
on a stormy subzero day. I pushed myself to keep warm and could have done a
better job with hydration.

I summated, turned around into the wind and exposed for an instant about a square
inch of face between the glacier glasses and the face mask. It flash froze, blistered
then dried out completely in three days. I shed the dead tissue and sported a crater
in my face for months. It never ever hurt.

 

[JohnL]

Interesting discussion. I have had a couple instances where I have had my hands extremely cold but the tissue has never gotten discolored like rambler's.

A couple winters ago, after summiting Garfield in below zero temperatures and heavy winds, my foot slipped out of a snowshoe in an exposed spot which had very deep drifts. I could not have gone ahead without the snowshoe on so I was forced to put it back on. My heavy mitts were too cumbersome so I took them off and quickly got myself together barehanded. Other than being cold for about ten minutes afterward, my fingers showed no signs of the cold until I got home and noticed that a thumb had a hollow spot at the tip beneath some drier than normal skin, similar to the skin on an old blister. No sensitivity problems. Three days later the thick dry skin on the entire tip of my thumb peeled away.

I’ve done two hikes in the past three weeks under very cold conditions (Cabot –20F and Osceolas –14F). In the cabin near the top of Cabot, we stopped to change mitts, hats, and add a layer for the descent. I made the mistake of brushing off the frost on my sleeves with my bare hands and it felt like my hands were flash frozen. Small bits of skin from several fingertips have peeled away in the meantime. Again, no sensitivity problems.

A few years ago, I found a pair of EMS expedition mitts at a summer sale for $25 and they are the absolute warmest mitts I have ever worn. Five minutes after popping my hands into the mitts at the Cabot cabin, I had to take the mitts off because my hands were overheating. Several times over the years my hands have felt like cold clubs and after wearing the mitts for a short time, they warm right up.

And speaking of nipples. Sorry, but I have one nipple story to tell. Descending alone from Isolation this winter on our Solstice hike, I was cruising down the trail in just a T-shirt when I brushed aside a small branch with my arm. It slipped from my grasp, snapped back at me, and, like the frayed end of a bull whip, reached terminal velocity on my cold right nipple. Imagine my dismay at not having worn my fleece vest at that particular time. The pain went straight back to my shoulder blade. I’m not sure what lesson this serves but there must be one in there somewhere.

JohnL

 

[Mad Townie]

On MLK Day on the Baldpates I noticed an interesting thing about cold hands. I was wearing my thinsulate hunting golves, which usually keep my hands quite warm. On the way up the mountain, though, my hands were cold in spite of my vigorous movement and my very warm (i.e., sweating) core.

Finally I figured out that my Lekis were set too long, so that my hands were always high, around head level. Later, in an even colder location and with all other things being essentially equal, shorter poles yielded warmer hands.

 

[markv]

I do know of some very effective and cute nipple warmers. However, they take 9 months to acquire, are indeed very expensive to maintain, and can not be returned. Even to REI.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

Good point by M.T. about ski poles being too long; in fact, not using ski poles at all would keep your hands lower and hence warmer, but I do like my ski poles, especially in the winter.

A good way to warm up hands is to swing your arms windmill fashion 20 ro 30 times, which usually gets the warm blood flowing back into the fingers. Same can be done with one foot at a time, while leaning on the ski poles pretending you are kicking field goals for the New England Patriots.