Killer leaves

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Puck I am not so sure about the theory . I spend a lot of time in forests of course and I see different specis of tress growning near each other all the time . Supposedly the red leves on some maples do this but I have my doubts as we have a very nice maple and brich grove growing on our land . I will say this is ancedotal and I have deilberatly cut down other trees to "create " the brich and maple grove I also have 3 very huge oak and they are shade trees some smaller hemlock have taken underneath them making very nice area with deep shade and ferns and lady slippers .

The Idea also is contrary to every thing I learned about plants they might produce something that is toxic to animals that want to eat it but they depend on other palnts tpo either drop leavs or die creating the duff or soil on the forest floor .
Now insects I understand do use "chemical Warfare "
 
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I certainly want to read more about this theory. The chemicals in question are the cartinoids and anthocyanides that are beneficial to us. I would like to see the mechanism. I can certainly understand trees compeating for light.

Incidently my avatar is a lighter morph taiga subspecies of perigrine falcon. I have a friend who rehabs raptors. she comes to me for advise on remedies to get these birds back into the wild faster.
 
I know for sure black walnut trees do this...they pretty much dont want ANYTHING growing around them...the produce something out of both the walnuts and from their root system I think...not even grass growns under them...

M
 
Puck said:
I certainly want to read more about this theory. The chemicals in question are the cartinoids and anthocyanides that are beneficial to us. I would like to see the mechanism. I can certainly understand trees compeating for light.

Incidently my avatar is a lighter morph taiga subspecies of perigrine falcon. I have a friend who rehabs raptors. she comes to me for advise on remedies to get these birds back into the wild faster.

That is interesting as I have always thought those chemicals were what helped the leaves break down . I just do not see the "chemical warfare " in a forest. Yester day for example I cut down a oak that was very close to a maple I later cut . in the same area saplings of both trees are growing near each other. Eventually the cut will have mostly birch maple, oak, ash and some beech in it as and the wetland and wild lif will retrun to normal.
Yes some trees do compeat for sunlight otheres do better if they start out in shade hemlocks , yews , hollys , and pines some maples also do better in partial shade and sun
part of why not much grows under a walnut is that it has a large crown that creates a lot of deep shade . If you were to see them in a forest there are smaller shade loving plants growing under them.
I want to read more about this "chemical warfare" my self .
Sorry about calling you avatar a owl I am sure a brid such a perigrine falcon would not like that. . I have owl near by I have some ok photos of it . I am hoping it will let me take a really nice close up
 
I think the American Chestnut tree also used this when it was dominant tree in our forests. Before the blight I believe it was 1 out of every 4 trees in the east. Seems 2006 they will have the first blight resistant American Chestnut tree and within a decade ready for commercial selling.

http://www.acf.org/

There is a similar site for Hemlock and its problems...
 
chuck said:
I think the American Chestnut tree also used this when it was dominant tree in our forests. Before the blight I believe it was 1 out of every 4 trees in the east. Seems 2006 they will have the first blight resistant American Chestnut tree and within a decade ready for commercial selling.

http://www.acf.org/

There is a similar site for Hemlock and its problems...

The American Chestnut is mentioned in the report I posted.

FIW..I thought I saw an American Chestnut tree on a hike in CT. I didn't post it for fear of Bigfoot and Jimmy Hoffa jokes. They are around. they get to a certain hight then the blight gets them.

Here is an article on the work going on to restore the tree; http://www.apsnet.org/online/feature/chestnut/
It sounds like fascinating research, I would give my left chestnut to work in her lab.
 
Killer Leaves....Yea Right!
I think it's both logical and probable that trees rid themselves of harmful chemicals through their discarded leaves, and these chemicals may be harmful to other plants in the area, but I think it's very unlikely that they do so intentionally to harm the other plants.

The feces of many animals is known to contain harmful chemicals, bacteria, and parasites. When a bear $h!ts in the woods, does he do so to kill the other animals there?!

And on a much lighter note I'd like to ask; So....where did Iraq hide it's trees? :eek: :D
 
One of the consequences of evolution is that anything that helps an orgamism survive and reproduce will be favored. I know that some plants in the desert southwest use chemical means to spread plants out sufficiently to ensure that each plant gets enough water. (For instance, in a pinyon pine and juniper forest, each tree will have an empty zone around it.) I thought that in the NE pine or spruce needles tended to make the soil around the tree acid and thus unfit for some other plants.

As for leaves shed in autumn? I have no specific knowledge of their use as chemical warefare agents, but it certainly could be a reasonable strategy for trees. Leaves, however, tend to get blown around by the wind and and therefore might not be a very efficient carrier of chemical agents to nearby locations. Chemicals emitted by roots might be more effective.

Doug
 
chuck said:
I think the American Chestnut tree also used this when it was dominant tree in our forests. Before the blight I believe it was 1 out of every 4 trees in the east. Seems 2006 they will have the first blight resistant American Chestnut tree and within a decade ready for commercial selling.

http://www.acf.org/

There is a similar site for Hemlock and its problems...

I will in line waiting to buy a blight resitant chestnut. the Blight was "imported " if you will from Europe where the chestnut tree is resistant ot it.
The Hemlocks problems are worse as ithe Algid is a insect from Asia that does not have a predator and the trees it feeds on in Asia are resitant to it . IIRC they have some sort of symbiotic relaionship.
 
Haven't listened to the NPR story, but I'm somewhat skeptical.

Plant competition is well-established. There is also a decent body of work demonstrating several examples of plants exuding chemicals that place other plant species at a disadvantage. The examples I can think of were smaller plants that put chemicals into the soil near their roots.

The thing is, putting chemicals in discarded leaves seems like a rather inefficient mechanism for poisoning the soil - the leaves would spread out all over the place, and most of the chemicals would probably be broken down by microorganisms before they could be taken up by competing trees' roots.
It might work (for a sufficiently long-lasting poison) if you assume that a given species of trees already has a dominant position and can effectively blanket the downwind area, but in that scenario the "shirking" problem would almost certainly outweigh the evolutionary benefit. That is, any "lazy" mutant that spared itself the effort of making all those poisons would be able to use that energy for growth and reproduction, while its seeds would still benefit from the leaf-poisons being produced by its neighbors. Nothing would stop the "lazy" trees from eventually outnumbering the poisoners. (Exception: trees that reproduce primarily by cloning wouldn't have a shirking problem. However, they also wouldn't get any benefit from scattering their leaves to the wind - I don't know a tree that disperses clonal seeds/spores on the wind.)

Somebody said they thought trees put chemicals in their leaves to get rid of the harmful chemicals. The problem with that theory is, the chemicals in plant leaves are, almost exclusively, *synthesized* by the plant itself. Plants have lots of chemicals in their leaves, primarily because the presence of strange chemicals has the evolutionary advantage of making the leaf less attractive as a foodstuff (mostly for insects, but also for larger browsers like mammals). That's how we got tobacco, and also milkweed. (In these two cases an insect has famously acquired resistance, but all other insects have been excluded.)

I'll have to listen to the original to find out what kind of chemicals we're talking about, but the theory seems pretty easily verifiable (though harder to falsify) - find a chemical X in a leaf of species A that inhibits the growth of species B, *more than it inhibits the growth of species A*. A "smoking gun" would be to find an unusual adaptation in A that makes it resistant to X. By itself, that's still not enough to eliminate other explanations for why A produces X (A might produce X as an insecticide and the inhibition of B might not have any real-world consequences because its leaves are scattered too far or X does not persist in the soil), but it would get my attention.
 
I am not sure if what is being called poison is actually poison but it is well known that when spruce needles decompose they make the soil very acidic or base. This makes the soil unsuitable for most other plants to grow. If you go into a spruce or many pine forests you will notice a great lack of other vegitation. One spot that springs to mind is the franconia brook trail when it diverts north from the lincoln brook trail. There is a section there IIRC that is pine needles covering the entire ground with no understory at all. There is another area in my hometown that had Red pine needles all over the ground with no understory at all. This cannot be from no sunlight because the pines are open enough to let sun in, at least here. Maybe the ground cover is so thick from the pines/spruce/fir needles on the ground that it is preventing anything from getting hold, but, I had heard that it was the PH of the soil. I am not any type of expert on this and haven't had time to research it so take what I am saying with a grain of salt.

I was told that it was considered a survival strategy that was used by these trees. If that is true then, I guess that makes precedence for this technique (poisoning) being used by trees.

Interesting discussion.

Keith
 
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Allelopathy

SAR-EMT40 said:
There is another area in my hometown that had Red pine needles all over the ground with no understory at all. This cannot be from no sunlight because the pines are open enough to let sun in, at least here. Maybe the ground cover is so thick from the pines/spruce/fir needles on the ground that it is preventing anything from getting hold, but, I had heard that it was the PH of the soil.

It's true that some plants do this. Pine tree needles are very acidic and tend to make the soil beneath them unsuitable for most competitors. The overall term for this kind of behavior you're talking about is Allelopathy. A quick search of this in google will yield lots of information. Most of the examples I know are from literature on live plants in aquariums. The very small space of an aquarium and the low turnover of water can amplify this effect.
 
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