Rope Usage Questions

[MattC]

In a recent thread there was discussion of climbing classes I-V. My question pertains to that sort of in-between area of class III and IV where ropes may or may not be used, depending on who you ask. I'm not a rock climber, but I understand what they're doing (I live in New Paltz after all)-I know what a belay is, etc. I also understand how ropes are used in a climb such as the Rainer one our friends recently completed.

So, the questions-how exactly are ropes used in that Class III-IV area? Are they always real climbing ropes or just hardware store rope? W/ or w/o harnesses? Belays? Is the Disappointment Cleaver route the Rainer crew took a Class III or IV? Does anyone use ropes in the Northeast on something like Katahdin's Knife Edge? Any other places or examples? I guess the thing about which I'm confused is when I read that on certain routes ropes may or may not be used, but they should be available if someone asks. This makes me visualize somebody whipping a rope out of their pack to help somebody that's disturbed by exposure or something. I can't visualize what they do w/ the rope after they take it out though.

Matt

 

[anita514]

you'd need climbing rope and a harness
basically, from my understanding people use a running belay when doing some class 4. not everyone decides to rope up, but for those who want that added safety, it's a good idea.

I haven't done katahdin, but from the millions of pics I've seen I really don't see any reason to rope up. I think that would be overkill.

on the dc route on rainier people rope up because of all the crevasse danger and in case someone falls.

I don't think there is much non technical stuff in the east that would require roping up. huntington is supposed to be the hardest route here, and I've never seen anyone using rope on it except to climb the gullies.

it's different in the west where alot of the mountains have at easiest class 3 routes to the top. on big peaks like that, I'd bring a rope and harness.

 

[TCD]

In the adks, people commonly bring ropes on the trap dike and on some of the slides, although they don't always come into use. When leading people up the trap dike who are new to it, I bring a rope. I did use the rope there when I took my nieces up a few years ago. The 16 yr old was fine, but I used the rope to protect the 12 yr old (as much for my comfort as for hers!).

Anita514 is right, there are many more places like that out west than there are here in the east.

In answer to a few of your questions:

If you're going to use a rope to protect people, in my opinion it has to be a climbing rope. Climbing ropes are designed for the indicated use. While a hardware rope might be plenty strong, it's not designed for that use, and most hardware store rope is specifically labeled with a contrainidication against any use to support or protect people (so there's a legal issue there is something goes wrong).

Regarding harnesses: Harnesses are a relatively recent innovation in climbing. 75 years ago they were unheard of. Everyone climbed on body tie in (the rope tied around your waist, and you have to know how to do this correctly). In vertical and class 5 situations, harnesses are an important safety feature. It would be dangerous to hang for any period of time or to take a leader fall on body tie in. But on something like the trap dike or a slide, harnesses are not necessary. They're nice and comfortable, and if you have one you can bring it, but if you don't want to spend the money or carry the weight, don't. Again, you have to know how to do body tie in correctly, for which you need qualified instruction.

Regarding belays: There are different belay methods, but if you are using a rope, you should to be using some sort of belay. Running belays are handy and save a lot of time, but you have to know what you're doing with the gear that's on the rope between the climbers. A fixed belay point technically is only needed for class 5, but it's handy for something like the trap dike, where there is one spot where the rope is particularly needed. How to actually set up a fixed belay, and to do the belaying, also has many variations and requires good instruction.

Have fun!

 

[giggy]

the ratings can be confusing - the DC on rainier is a class 2 mountainering route - which is different than a class 2 or 3 hike/climb. which is different from a grade 2 or 3 ice route. The only reason you rope up on the DC is for crevasse danger. I have heard some years there are are fixed ropes you can clip into if the dc is very icy or something. I would say the DC rock portion is class 2 or maybe easy class 3 rock - Most of the snow is moderate so say 30 to 40 degrees with some of the snow on the DC itself being 45-55 degrees. It is considered an easy snow climb

Some may argue that you rope up so you can arrest each others fall - and this is purley an indivual thought as some think ropeing up on moderate terrain (such as most of the DC is w/o crevasse factor) - is more dangerous. I kind of fall somewhere in between - for example - this was a incident on the trip I went on where someone fell and was succesfully arrested by the team - so it worked and they may have fell to their death had they not arrested here. - if that person was not roped up (it was probably 45-50 degree snow) - and not arrested themself - goner. but its a gamble becuase they also could have taken the whole team down if mommentum was built.

I think some people do rope up on class 4 rock routes.

you want to to only use climbing ropes - but the diameter is different for the use - I have a smaller diamter rope (9.2mm) becuase I climb mostly snow and "easy" ice (grade 2 and 3) for the most part - where a fall won't be as "bad" as a fall from a 5.10 rock route.

One thing I can say is you probably don't want to be roped up if you don't have the basic fundamentals on its use with belaying, protection, etc.

the bottom line is you rope up when you/party feel like you should -

hope this helps.

 

[Halite]

Good answers already. I agree that if you're using a rope, you would use some sort of harness and an appropriate belay. A light, simple harness could be made out of climbing slings and biners.

I think the decision about pulling out a rope on class III or IV could be a tough one in a group, since it's a judgment call that each person could make differently. For me, even if the likelihood of a fall is relatively small, but the consequences of that fall are large, I would rope up. For example, when rock climbing I insist that we always belay or use an anchor working near a cliff edge, even if the ground provides a good stance.

This August during our first trip to the Daks, my family wanted to scramble down to the base of the waterfall near the Flowed Lands (I'm blanking on the name.) There's clearly a spot where others have gone down before. In my judgment, the route was too steep, wet, slippery and loose to go down without a rope and belay. My decision to veto the plan was not popular. But this was a case where the exposure was so great that risking a fall didn't seem appropriate. I would love to go back with decent equipment and scramble down because the pool at the base of those falls did look enticing.

Reading some of the trip reports about the Trap Dike made me want to climb it and some other slides. But I was wondering whether I would do it without a rope and some basic gear.

 

[spaddock]

Being pretty ignorant when it comes to rock climbing. Say you're on trap dike and you want to rope up, what do you attach the rope to? How does the guy belaying you (the last guy) climb up?


Thanks,
Shayne

 

[ChrisB]

Hi all,

Iam reminded of an old climber's saying to the effect:

"The party that ropes together falls together."

I guess the import of this saying is that, once you join the group together by a rope, your fates are (for better or worse) inexorably linked.

A accident on Mt Hood a few years back illustrated this when a roped party slipped at the top of the Hourglass section of the standard route. They were unable to self arrest and, as they fell, they entangled other roped paries below them, eventually sweeping two or three other groups down the mountain. Fatalties did result.

What I personally take from this is the importance of establishing at least one bomb-proof belay anchor when a rope is in use.

A rope will offer merely psychological protection if no one attached to it can hang onto the mountain in case of a fall.

There are a few different techniques available to support all members of a roped party moving together while protected. Check out "Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills" for specifics.

cb

 

[DougPaul]

the ratings can be confusing - the DC on rainier is a class 2 mountainering route - which is different than a class 2 or 3 hike/climb. which is different from a grade 2 or 3 ice route.

Giggy,

Don't know if this is a typo, but it could be confusing to non-technical climbers.

Class refers to difficulty, grade refers to time requred to complete the route.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Being pretty ignorant when it comes to rock climbing. Say you're on trap dike and you want to rope up, what do you attach the rope to? How does the guy belaying you (the last guy) climb up?

Anchors depend on what is available. Sometimes one can tie to rocks or trees. There are also devices for making temporary anchors in cracks in the rocks (pitons or chocks/nuts).

I think you are asking about the first guy (the leader). The leader has to climb above his protection and takes greater risks than the followers.

Technical climbing is a sport where very high forces can be generated with very little warning. Much of one's safety is in always being protected _before_ the problem occurs. Many very specialized and detailed techniques are required. If you are not an experienced technical climber, bring one along to do the ropework and protection. Or take some lessons yourself. (And no, gym climbing is not adequate for outdoor climbing.)

A related experience:
I was on a hike up a slide. The (non-climbing) leader had enough natural talent that he had no difficulty getting up a short difficult spot. Others had problems that he had not forseen. I (with a climbing background) could see that the spot was too difficult for many (and actually exposed enough to be dangerous) and found an easier route around it. The judgement and route finding skills that one picks up in climbing can be useful in borderline situations.

Doug

 

[jfb]

I don't think there is any one "right" answer, there are a few variables involved. If there is an experienced leader and nervous followers, the leader may just climb up the hard move trailing a climbing rope behind and set up a belay above the hard move. In that case a harness may or may not be needed or may even be shared by more than one member of the group. The belay may just be a matter of the leader bracing against a rock to prevent getting pulled off or an anchor may be constructed. There are also instances where a class 3 or 4 pitch is halfway up a climb (e.g. Lakeview) and whoever leads the pitch just runs it out with no protection because it's easier to manage the rope that way.

 

[TCD]

We've talked about a lot of climbing related questions on this thread, and we've hinted at it, but it needs to be explicitly stated:

"Please do not try to learn any climbing techniques from this thread. There is no substitute for qualified instruction."

Thanks.

TCD

 

[giggy]

thanks doug - was trying to point out the confusion of the rating systems in my own sick humor type of way and I made it more confusing!! and the typo on class didn't help!! I think I have succesfully managed to make it more confusing.

thanks for pointing that out.

the main point was that rainier is alpine mountaineering grade II - which is diff from a grade II (or class 2) rock or ice - - not too familar with this grading system - but think is is basically used in bigger moutains.

example - DC is grade II - but has some class 2 rock - while liberty ridge is alpine III or IV - and has like NEI3 or NEI4 ice or class 4 rock.

hope this makes more sense.

 

[Michael M]

no one moves

Great thread

no one gets hurt

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Being pretty ignorant when it comes to rock climbing. Say you're on trap dike and you want to rope up, what do you attach the rope to? How does the guy belaying you (the last guy) climb up?

In this specific case, it's easy. Remember that MOST people climb the Trap Dike without ropes. Remember, that it is just the waterfall section that is tough. The leader climbs up he waterfall section with the rope in his/her pack. Ties the rope arounde an anchor, and drops it over the waterfall.

 

[Bob Kittredge]

I've only seen ropes in use once on a hiking trail and that was Huntington Ravine. Someone was leading a group of (apparent) newbies and had thought to bring a rope to help the shakier members up the steep slab above the fan.

This summer I bought a map of Baxter State Park and found that all the trails were marked with class ratings. In particular, Abol Slide and the Knife Edge were both rated IV. That seemed a bit much for Abol Slide and kind of marginal for the KE. Perhaps one might use a rope in the steep little col near Pamola, but most people didn't seem to need one.

 

[sierra]

beleys?

I dissagree that fixed anchors should always be used when roped together. On class 4 or easy class 5 it is quite safe to both climb at the same time with gear placed by the leader and taken out by the second. Now this is based on 2 things, this kind of roped climbing is assuming the probabilty of falling is small, the climbers are proficient at climbing the grade thier climbing but the margin of safety in soloing it is thin. On traverses on big peaks, quite frankly stopping to set up belays is a waste of time, thier is not that much gear placed to begin with and taking in the rope is a son of a gun, your going to fall anyway, its not like a veritcal pitch on a crag. The idea is, even if you fall you wont fall to your death, thats the line of thinking, it is quite possble for the leader to occasionally stop, place his feet against a boulder to allow the second to "pull" a hard move then the leader is back up and climbing, the point is speed. Out west in CO there are 4 great traverses between 14ers, many rope up on these, but I tell you this, you must be fast. It takes awaile to get up there, awahile on the traverse and then the descent, IM talking a mile of technical, given the thunderstorm probabilty out west, you cant take hours and hours belaying, setting up anchors and such, your setting yourself up for an epic.
Let me add, I would NOT utilize the above techniques with begginers, these are proven techniques for proven climbers, thats important.

 

[giggy]

cool thread -

while I don't have the time and grade that he has on bigger mt (or mts in genenral!) - I would absolutley agree with sierra here - speed is saftey - when I was preparing for rainier I watched a dvd in which Eric simonson said if your setting belays on every pitch - turn arund - you're in over your head.

FWIW - I have taken a few begineers up lions head winter route - and while this is not hard at all for most on VFTT - for a beginner (I do feel mt washington is appropriate for beginners for many reasons which i will not get into now) it can be quite steep. I will take a runner, biners, and about 30 feet of 6mm access cord - and if needed - set up a quick "fixed rope" above the couple of steep parts. in case they need the rope to hold on too. don't know if this is appropriate practice - but its worked the past.

 

[thuja]

So, the questions-how exactly are ropes used in that Class III-IV area? Belays? I guess the thing about which I'm confused is when I read that on certain routes ropes may or may not be used, but they should be available if someone asks. This makes me visualize somebody whipping a rope out of their pack to help somebody that's disturbed by exposure or something. I can't visualize what they do w/ the rope after they take it out though.
Matt

You are right to be confused by this, because it is, in fact, a much more ambiguous, confusing, area, than 5th class climbing, and the risk considerations are often subtle. Why be tied together on a rope if there is no protection? Does that not in fact imply that if one person falls, both will fall, and you have effectively doubled your risk? Sometimes, yes, it means exactly that. But there are several situations where it makes sense. Consider:

-on an alpine route, where speed and efficiency are important, people would stay roped up through sections where they are placing no protection because it is faster than taking the rope off and on.

-consider an experienced leader, a "guide" if you like, with a less experienced and confident follower. The leader is essentially acting like a rope gun. The rope offers no protection for him, since he is running out a whole pitch without placing any protection. But at some point (often not a full rope length), he stops and belays up the follower, who has the security of a top belay. This is probalby close to the scenario mentioned above, where someone "asks" for a rope. And it could involve no protection at all, just a rope, since the leader could just find an adequate stance or some such. Falls by followers on a tight rope do not involve a lot of force and so can be held relatively easily.

There's also the possibility of "simul-climbing" 4th or low 5th class terrain, with the leader placing occasional protection (could be slinging horns, trees, shrubbery) and the follower takes it out as he passes it. At some point, of course, the follower will accumulate all the gear and the leader would have to stop and "bring up" the follower.

Because it is often travelled unroped or with no protection, 3rd and 4th class terrain can be dangerous. Paradoxically, often more so than well-protectable steeper 5th class terrain with good rock.

Is the Disappointment Cleaver route the Rainer crew took a Class III or IV?
Matt

It is neither. These classes are really for rating rock climbs, not snow. The DC on Rainier is steep snow. Snow is too changeable a medium for such ratings to make sense. How hard, or easy it is, can be quite variable. It depends on snow consistency. If the snow is frozen hard, as it would often be in a morning ascent, even in summer, it is quite unforgiving. A fall of one person could be difficult to arrest. That is why I think RMI puts fixed ropes on part of it, pity the poor guide trying to hold three people.Subjectively, I would equate this kind of hard, steep snow climbing as class III: it's technically easy, but if you do something clumsy, like trip over your crampons, you could die.

 

[sierra]

ability to improvise

One thing this thread is showing is the ability to improvise in the mountains, thats where skill and experience come in, learn from books and guides but be willing to adjust and do things that each individual situation calls for. One time I met a girl near whitehorse ledge, she wanted to do a slab, I offered to "lead" her up. I anchored her below the crux, climbed the crux then ran out alot of rope, feeling good I just kept climbing ( it wasnt that hard). As the rope came taught, I realized I had bypassed the 3 belay stance, now this is a completely blank slab Im on and while its easy climbing up a slab downclimbing it is not east at all. I could stand there well and looked around seeing the 4th anchor 20 ft above me, I asked her to untie from the anchor and climb up to allow me to reach the next anchor, she would not, she refused to untie while I wasnt tied to an anchor, I was at least 50 ft above any gear, facing a 100ft fall, now I can assure you I was standing up and definetly could have stopped any fall she might have had or I wouldnt have even suggested she climb up, fianally she did, I easily made the anchor and set up in 2 minutes. She was a little mad but then realized that while not text book, we reacted to a instance where improvisation had to happen for my safety. By the time we reached the top, she was very happy to have done her first big climb and we went on to do many other long routes in the Whites safely, finding most of the anchors along the way.

 

[ChrisB]

Of Grades and Grading

Thought you all might find this PDF on route grades of interest.

It provides a comparison of some international grades, as well as info about the grading of various mediums (rock, ice, snow, etc.)

On another topic: I think many otherwise competent climbers sometimes delude themselves when it comes to the quality of their running belays.

A recent case involves a duo in Damanation Gulley whose belay failed when the leader blew an ice dam and fell off a steep ice pitch at the top of the gulley. The second (on much easier and comfortable terrain just below) was unable to hold the fall. Both went to the bottom.

Not sure what their anchor situation was... except for inadequate.
cb