Fog navigating the northern Presidentials

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Darren said:
OK, back on topic. First off, assuming that you know where you are, map and compass still work in the fog
Click to expand...
As long as there isn’t too much wind. Ever try to get a bearing off a map in an insane wind?

A good idea, is to work with your map before. At home. Write the bearings to ridges, junctions, bumps, etc on a small card, or on the back of your compass. Make it with as many short hops as possible. Get to points where you can re-orient yourself. Plan on getting lost before you do, and it'll be easier if you do.

Chip said:
This was my only point. Since all trails (generally) head towards a ridge or summit, your odds of locating a trail increase as you head up and decrease dramatically as you whack down
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Since you’ve already lost a trail once, what guarantee is there that you’ll be able to remain on it once you’ve found it at a higher place, where it is much easier to loose a trail.

jfb said:
I try to avoid hiking solo above treeline when visibility is poor.
Click to expand...
If I’m climbing and hit bad visibility conditions (when alone) I immediately turn around. Not because I’m afraid of getting lost, dieing,, etc. I’m quite confidant in my abilities to get me back safely. I just don’t like bushwhacking in those conditions. It’ll easily take three times as long.

GPS: In 10 years, legally, you may be considered ‘foolhardy’ if you travel without one. Someday I have to catch up with this modern world.
 
fog and snow

I usually do as Pete says. I make a quick map on a small piece of paper with bearings for the entire days trip. Pretty crude but something with slashes for way-marks I have noted on the map. It has helped me out in the past when I was caught by surprise, once in fog and once in blowing snow. The string thing, although it would work, would make me crazy!
 
been there, done that

I had the opportunity to climb Jeff in foggy conditions in winter with some friends. Visablilty was limited and the cairns were not visable on the route. So the idea of sending people out ahead or using a rope to find the next cairn was moot. There is no substitute for being able to navigate, not just following a visable trail. Map and compass with altimeter are usually adequate.

Terrain association is easy with good visability. When visability is diminished, small terrain features can easily be misinterpreted sending you false information that affects your navigation decisions. So it is not adequate to stay on track but you must be able to know when you are off track and be able to get back on track after going awry. Lots of close compass work, concentration, and redundant altitude handrails (more like left and right boundry limits.).

Also, turns out that we all left the map at home. Had to memorize the salient points on the map at the cabin. Actually pretty easy to do if you consider your life may depend on it, as ours did. And memorized bearings overome the problem with manipualting a large map in the wind. Or you could fold the map up to see just whats needed as I usually do.

It was a memorable experience of which I have fond memories
 
There's a lot of discussion of compasses here for fiding the general direction of the trail, but I'm not sure if I saw a specific mention that the compass can also be used to find your way back to the previous cairn.

If you are at a cairn, and you can't see the next one, but you think you know the general direction: Pick a bearing that goes in the right direction. Using objects you CAN see (15 or 20 ft ahead), follow that bearing out. If you find the next cairn, great! If you don't, reverse the bearing ("back azimuth" for compass nerds), and you will be able to get reasonably close, at least within sight of, the cairn you started from.

The advantage of this is efficiency. It allows a solo hiker to go out of sight of the starting cairn, to more efficiently search for the next one, and still find their way back if need be. (Advanced compass folks can also conduct a rectangular, or triangular search pattern using the compass and counting strides. This kind of pattern covers more area and increases the chances of findin the next cairn, and you still have a prettty good chance of getting back to the starting cairn if need be).

TCD
 
Hey guys,

Since I had my TRSM Cert with Marc recently, and we spoke about VFTT a bit, and since he is a reader, he sent over a response. It's a pretty good explanation of why he uses Lat Long Vs. UTM:

Chris- I was reading this tread "Fog navigating the Northern
Presidentials" and they are commenting on the Chauvin Guides web site's
use of Lat Long instead of UTM in my Pressy Traverse trip plan. I can't
clarify in the thread why I leave it as Lat Long and don't change it to
UTM because of the inability to register on VFTT.

The reason is that the two most common datum's in use around here NAD27
and WGS84/NAD83 are not very different in Lat Long where they are very
different in UTM. The difference between the datum's in Lat Long is .02
miles or about 100 feet. In UTM it is .14 miles or about 740 feet. If
people put the Lat Long into their GPS in either datum it is pretty
accurate for the purpose so it is more foolproof than publishing UTM.
Seeing people may use this in important circumstances I felt keeping it
in Lat Long would be better for that reason given its on the internet
and I don't now the level of skill the user might have.

All GPS's I know about will convert Lat Long to UTM in either datum if
they prefer. I use UTM for the most part but have run into the
confusion of datum's when communicating with others. Lat Long can solve
that problem (to at least within 100 feet anyway)

If you would like to post this you are welcome to otherwise you can keep
it FYI

Marc Chauvin IFMGA
Chauvin Guides International
PO Box 2151
North Conway, NH 03860
603 356 8919
http://chauvinguides.com
Click to expand...

-percious
 
TCD said:
There's a lot of discussion of compasses here for fiding the general direction of the trail, but I'm not sure if I saw a specific mention that the compass can also be used to find your way back to the previous cairn.

If you are at a cairn, and you can't see the next one, but you think you know the general direction: Pick a bearing that goes in the right direction. Using objects you CAN see (15 or 20 ft ahead), follow that bearing out. If you find the next cairn, great! If you don't, reverse the bearing ("back azimuth" for compass nerds), and you will be able to get reasonably close, at least within sight of, the cairn you started from.

The advantage of this is efficiency. It allows a solo hiker to go out of sight of the starting cairn, to more efficiently search for the next one, and still find their way back if need be. (Advanced compass folks can also conduct a rectangular, or triangular search pattern using the compass and counting strides. This kind of pattern covers more area and increases the chances of findin the next cairn, and you still have a prettty good chance of getting back to the starting cairn if need be).

TCD
Click to expand...


I pretty much agree with TCD on this one. I don't think you should be up there without a map, compass, and knowledge on how to use them. I realize that the map may not be useful in the fog, but if you pop out in an unexpected place, you need to know how to get where your ultimate destination is once the visibility improves.

As far as not heading up there in the fog. Picture this scenerio. You decide for a solo summit of washington, followed by a traverse over to Adams, and back down to your car which is parked at GG Wilderness. The day is relatively clear, and you stop at the summit house for a bite of warm pizza and you run into friends. You get going later than expected, and by the time you reach T-storm junction, you are socked in. Turns out your batteries were not re-charged or are defective and your GPS is non-functional.

You have set a pretty solid "call the ranger im in trouble" time with your wife because you are heading out solo. You want to avoid sending out all those SAR people.

I think it is easy to see how someone can get stuck in the situation where reliance on a GPS is not always the best plan, and practiced knowledge of map/navigation is the only way to go.

-percious
 
Thanks to Marc Chauvin for his response, and a big thanks for the Traverse Guide!

To see a demonstration of what he's talking about re: comparing shifts between lat/lon and UTM if one is careless with the datums, see the links below for four TopoZone maps. The red star on each map marks the point in question. The first map is centered on Madison Spring Hut using the Chauvin Presidential Traverse Route Plan coordinates and NAD 27. Watch what happens when you switch datums:

1. NAD 27: 44° 19" 39' N; 71° 17" 01' W.

2. Same lat/lon, this time in NAD 83.

3. Start with same point as #2 on topoZone, but switch to UTM using TopoZone transformation.

4. Take UTM coordinates generated in #3 and switch datum to NAD 27. This one shows why Marc Chauvin has used lat/lon as he explains above, anticipating that a GPS user might fail to match datums.
 
Last edited:
sardog1 said:
Thanks to Marc Chauvin for his response, and a big thanks for the Traverse Guide!

To see a demonstration of what he's talking about re: comparing shifts between lat/lon and UTM if one is careless with the datums, see the links below for four TopoZone maps.
(snip)
Click to expand...


TOPZONE is a great website to demonstrate this issue as you have done.

I think the most important issue at hand is the fact a GPS user MUST coordinate/set DATUM in GPS to match any maps being used.

I ordered custom maps from TOPOZONE which are USGS NAD27, then had the option for UTM lines included. I use a UTM corner rule for the proper map scale and can easily and accurately transfer information to and from maps to GPS.
It's all very accurate as long as you have your settings correct.

I beleive the data maps which come loaded on Garmin GPS units are WGS84, as well as thier "MAPSOURCE" data, therefore must be used with caution regarding all of the issues as above.
 
I did like the idea of having some cord to use, so I went to a hardware store and bought some Mason cord--bright yellow. This type of cord is very light so I won't mind carrying it on my hikes. Cut about 50 feet to throw into my pack in case of such an emergency.
 
TCD said:
If you are at a cairn, and you can't see the next one, but you think you know the general direction: Pick a bearing that goes in the right direction. Using objects you CAN see (15 or 20 ft ahead), follow that bearing out. If you find the next cairn, great! If you don't, reverse the bearing ("back azimuth" for compass nerds), and you will be able to get reasonably close, at least within sight of, the cairn you started from.

The advantage of this is efficiency. It allows a solo hiker to go out of sight of the starting cairn, to more efficiently search for the next one, and still find their way back if need be.
Click to expand...
There is a generalization of this technique used for boat navigation in the fog which would be useful for hiking. Starting at a cairn, take a guess at the bearing to the next cairn. Use your compass to follow the bearing for what seems like far enought that you should have seen the next cairn. If you don't see it, turn around and follow the back bearing back to the first cairn. Add or subtract some angle, such as 10 or 20 degrees and try again. This technique allows you to perform a fan search until you find the next cairn.

Remember too, to look to both sides as well as ahead--this will give you the widest possible search path. (Once when we did this on a sailboat, I was on the helm and my view dead ahead was blocked by the mast and rigging. The lookouts on the bow didn't see the buoy, but I spotted it because I was carefully checking to the sides...)

Doug
 
ChrisB said:
Hi Shincracker,

Glad it all worked out ok for you.

I was wondering, did you try to relocated the trail using map and compass before deciding to head down into King's ravine?

Or did you decide that heading N into the ravine was a better bet than E towards the hut or back-tracking S to intersect the Gulfside trail?

Just curious about your thought process...

We can all learn from your adventure!!

Thanks,
cb
Click to expand...

Some facts I left out....I am in my upper sixties and have determined that I can do about 1500 feet of vertical climbing in one day safely with no set limit on proceeding at altitude or descending. I took public transportation to the top of Mount Washington that day and then proceeded to Madison Hut. Believe it or not, one ascends about 1100 feet in all the ups and downs to Madison. When I had gotten into the upper King Ravine by mistake, I felt It was not safe for me from a cardiovascular standpoint to try to retrace my steps to Thunderstorm Junction and then try to get to Madison. I felt that going down to the highway was the safer alternative. Little did I realize that by losing the trail down King Ravine, I would have to do a lot of sideways bushwhacking in order to find a safe route down. In summary, I probably did have the reserves of strength to make it back to Madison.

Shincracker
 
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