Ravine of Raymond Cataract

The Ravine of Raymond Cataract (RoRC) lies between the Tuckerman and Huntington Ravines. Long ago there was a trail through the Ravine, but it is no longer maintained. I read a report about bushwacking it in this forum and about skiing it in Time for Tucks. I’ve hiked the ‘standard’ winter trails (Lions Head, Boott Spur, the gullies) and I’m looking for an alternate, nontechnical route on the east side of Washington. Do you know anything about hiking the RoRC in winter?

I came down it once after I broke a crampon & thought Lion Head too dangerous. I couldn't remember which side the White Mtn Guide recommended and came down the R facing downhill, the thick trees were comforting but the small cliffs were a pain. When I got home I discovered my outdated guide recommended the L

I went up it in summer conditions many years ago. I recall crossing from one side to the other on a small ledge behind waterfall and then walking on spruce branches that were so dense that I couldn't reach the ground.

Not sure that I would want to do it in winter--it is probably an avalanche chute.

IIRC, the route is described in one of my older guidebooks.

Doug

I would be interested in finding a copy of the former trail description. I had a friend of mine search through her complete collection of AMC guides a few years ago and she could not locate a description of an actual trail. Basically all she could find was variations of the description in the current guide. There was a maintained "unofficial trail" up through the ravine about 20 years ago as reported by several folks. The maintainer intentionally did not not clear the first few hundred feet to obscure the access.

A local old timer once told me that there wasnt a trail up through the ravine as the sewerage from the summit flowed down through there!. On a day hike in the alpine garden, a few years after I had heard that assertion, I did notice a fairly steady stream appearing out of the side of the summit cone that ran in that general direction. I expect that any sewerage has long since been handled appropriately but it is interesting.

I have heard rumors of climbers going down that in winter after climbing in hunts. not sure why as the escape hatch is easier!

I am sure it could be climbed in winter with some thrashing - it can't be that hard of a climb - if it was, you would hear of people heading in there more

funny you mention this - b/c I was thinking of checking it out this winter!

My 1931 AMC guidebook gives a detailed description of the "route", but states there is no path. According to the guidebook, it is an "exceedingly interesting" route. Reading it, it certainly sounds like it is. It gives a distance of 1 mi from the Raymond Path to the Alpine Garden.

My 1969 AMC guidebook devotes 2/3 of a page to the summer route. It starts out "There is no trail up the ravine." It mentions a former footway (covered by underbrush) and describes a route up.

There is also a 1/2 page on the winter route. The 4 summer cataracts are consolidated into 2 and are surmounted by climbing steep snow on the right.

Doug

DougPaul said:

The 4 summer cataracts are consolidated into 2 and are surmounted by climbing steep snow on the right.

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Many years ago I enjoyed a late-winter climb up that steep snow, made unusually easy to get to by a near-record snowy winter that covered most of the trees between the Huntington road and the steep snow. The last time I walked the road, last summer, I think, I remember thinking that the growth of the trees over the last 30 years would make the route involve a lot more thrashing in the bushes. I was told that in the 1950s it was the preferred route in winter for MWO and Pinkham people, and also the sewer rt in the summer.

peakbagger said:

A local old timer once told me that there wasnt a trail up through the ravine as the sewerage from the summit flowed down through there!.

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"Views from the Rockpile" or somesuch said that was legendary but present sewage drained W And as you say both are probably history now.

If DP was to expand on what the guidebook says, the summer route crosses back & forth while the winter route is R (going up) and you should not go up L because of minor cliffs or somesuch - quite true As to whether the falls themselves are ice climb or avalanche chute I'll leave that to others, but as mentioned the side of the ravine was once considered a safer route than Lion Head - proven true by landslide on latter.

RoySwkr said:

If DP was to expand on what the guidebook says, the summer route crosses back & forth while the winter route is R (going up) and you should not go up L because of minor cliffs or somesuch - quite true

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Correct.

As to whether the falls themselves are ice climb or avalanche chute I'll leave that to others, but as mentioned the side of the ravine was once considered a safer route than Lion Head - proven true by landslide on latter.

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There have been avalanches on Lions Head, but how many have there been in the Ravine of Raymond Cataract? IMO, a little hard to compare without both numbers.

Doug

Wasn't a rescuer killed in Raymond Cataract in an avalanche while searching for Hugh Herr?

adamiata said:

Wasn't a rescuer killed in Raymond Cataract in an avalanche while searching for Hugh Herr?

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No, that was on Lions Head.

Doug

DougPaul said:

There have been avalanches on Lions Head, but how many have there been in the Ravine of Raymond Cataract? IMO, a little hard to compare without both numbers.

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I don't know if anybody tracks minor avalanches or how they would do so

However there has been a major Lion Head avalanche that wiped out the original trail while nothing of the sort occurred on RC or it would be visible, so as stated those thinking RC is safer were correct one day at least

An avalanche coming right down the cataract wouldn't necessarily leave a new scar. PS I see two scars near where I think LH Winter Route runs, anyone know which is the slide that wiped out the trail?

East side of Mt Wash in spring

nartreb said:

An avalanche coming right down the cataract wouldn't necessarily leave a new scar. PS I see two scars near where I think LH Winter Route runs, anyone know which is the slide that wiped out the trail?

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IIRC, the LH winter route once followed the path of the 68-69 (or was it 69-70) avalanche*. Don't know which that might be in the photo.

* Again IIRC, this avalanche crossed Tuckerman Ravine Tr, so it was a biggie.


Also, since Lions Head is a major winter route, people pay attention to the avalanche risk and activity on it. In contrast, people pay far less attention to whatever happens in the Ravine of Raymond Cataract and I wouldn't be surprised if much of it goes unrecorded.

Doug

Nice picture here of part of the Ramond Cataract http://www.northeastwaterfalls.com/waterfall.php?num=333&p=0 Based on some accident reports rescue teams definitely feel the ravine is an avalanche area in the "right" conditions.

Thanks for everyone's interest in the topic. I've gotten some good beta, especially the personal experiences. I can get a copy of the 1969 WMG; thanks, DougPaul. I'll put in a call to Snow Ranger Joosen to learn what the Forest Service thinks of the avalanche danger.

dms said:

Based on some accident reports rescue teams definitely feel the ravine is an avalanche area in the "right" conditions.

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I have the last decade's Appalachia accident reports on hand but I don't recall reading about the RoRC. Where might I read the ones to which you refer?

I talked with a few folks at Pinkkham last year about the possiblity of ski descent here and was told those cascades often become a 30' near vertical icefall. If so, there is little immediate avi danger at the fall itself as it won't hold much snow. The danger is being swept over from sliding snow above. On that note, several posters are referring to "avi danger" in the cascade as if it was a static feature wihch it is not. Clearly the place has potential to slide but the avi danger may vary greatly year to year depending on snowpack characteristics.

Scouter Bill said:

Thanks for everyone's interest in the topic. I've gotten some good beta, especially the personal experiences. I can get a copy of the 1969 WMG; thanks, DougPaul. I'll put in a call to Snow Ranger Joosen to learn what the Forest Service thinks of the avalanche danger.


I have the last decade's Appalachia accident reports on hand but I don't recall reading about the RoRC. Where might I read the ones to which you refer?

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Jim Dowd, former caretaker of the Harvard Cabin, was a leader of a search team for the ill fated Monroe Couper and Eric Lattey. One of the routes he checked was Raymond Cataract, he said he did not go up it because of the heavy snow drifts in the cataract, and that upon starting up it almost avalanched on him. His report is found at http://groups.google.com/group/rec.climbing/browse_thread/thread/71650695abfcfd0c

yardsale said:

I talked with a few folks at Pinkkham last year about the possiblity of ski descent here and was told those cascades often become a 30' near vertical icefall. If so, there is little immediate avi danger at the fall itself as it won't hold much snow. The danger is being swept over from sliding snow above. On that note, several posters are referring to "avi danger" in the cascade as if it was a static feature wihch it is not. Clearly the place has potential to slide but the avi danger may vary greatly year to year depending on snowpack characteristics.

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While the Cascades themselves are steep, there is a big collecting bowl above which funnels into them. My handy-dandy digital topo says that the average slope of the brook path is about 25 degrees (steeper on some other paths), and of course it is steeper at the cascades. The transition zone from the bowl to the cascades would be a tension zone where it might be easy to trigger an avalanche. And like Tucks, the prevailing wind would tend to deposit snow in the bowl.

Looks like potential avy terrain to me...

Doug