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Thread: Hotel on Mt Washington??!!

  1. #76
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    ... He also made comparisons with Europe where high end hotel accommodations are apparently the norm.
    This got me thinking... a hotel might support year-round operations for the cog if skiing was put into the mix. The ski "piste" cleared by the cog starts right below the skyline switch. So a run from there to the base station would provide about 2500 vert. No too bad (but boring).

    A ski and sty package for the cog la Sunday River is a possibility!

    Wikipedia has some interesting photos of Cog history, including the summit hotel.

    cb
    Nobody told me there'd be days like these
    Strange days indeed -- most peculiar, mama
    .

  2. #77
    Senior Member dug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    This got me thinking... a hotel might support year-round operations for the cog if skiing was put into the mix. The ski "piste" cleared by the cog starts right below the skyline switch. So a run from there to the base station would provide about 2500 vert. No too bad (but boring).

    A ski and sty package for the cog la Sunday River is a possibility!

    Wikipedia has some interesting photos of Cog history, including the summit hotel.

    cb
    http://www.nelsap.org/articles/cog.html

    Tried it before, but never took off. May try it again...

  3. #78
    Senior Member miehoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    Hey with a possible sewer line installed maybe there might be Micro Brewery. I can see it now....."Smog Rail Ale".
    Coal Porter
    Miehoff

  4. #79
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miehoff View Post
    Coal Porter
    Dropped Pant Lager
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  5. #80
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    Thanks for looking up the edu trip costs. Its really not a good comparison to the Cogs 7 month season proposal as the cog is having to haul everyone up via a snowcat.

    My belief is barring public funding for the capital costs which the Cog insists it will not do, the capital costs for the hotel plus limited seasons is going to drive the cost of the experience up closer to the Edu trip price then the AMC hut price. Sure there are "hikers" who happen to be affluent but I don't expect many VFTT folks will be handing over their credit card very often for a stay.

    The whole economics of the summit are confusing. Presby's claim is the state park runs at a loss yet there are two profitable tourist businesses whose success is directly related to the summit and what Presby described as numerous public and private telecom towers on the summit. I would expect that these towers should contribute to the cost for their operations and I have seen past complaints by a radio station about the outrageous power costs on the summit which apparently fund some summit operations by a surcharge on the power. Sadly the obs is an organization that appears to exist as a means to continue its existence, an anachronism whose time is probably past similar to the coal fired locomotives. At one point they served an important role in S&R but of late they specifically warn hikers that they are not trained or are able to participate in rescues. The state has apparently decided that based on that decision that they will staff the summit in the winter and I believe they have purchased a snow cat to support this effort.

    I would curious to see if there has been any studies done to break out the summit users between Cog, Auto Road and hikers on foot. I expect the Cog and Auto road legitimately don't want to subsidize hiker traffic so the obvious solution is privatize the toilets and associated waste water disposal system. Each Cog and Autoroad visitor could get a token as part of their ticket and the hiker trash would have to buy a token to use the toilets. The token cost would then go to cover the cost for more sanitary facilities and the cost to deal with the waste. I expect there would be brisk trade in "I took a dump on Mt Washington" bumper stickers .

    The strange thing is I don't see or hear about a toilet/wastewater crisis on the summits of Chocorua and Monadnock two very popular mountains or Moosilaukee, Lincoln, Lafayette Jefferson Adams, Bigelow and Katahdin. This is indicative to me that the Auto road and Cog which is absent from the other summits are probably a major contributor to the problem and should be contributing for the majority of the costs.

  6. #81
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Being a member of the Obs and also a Ham Radio Operator I would totally disagree that the Obs is an anachronism. Also the use of radio towers are worth paying for in that location. Both are directly connected to important research and links to important communication chains. Both of which serve hikers, climbers, skiers, and members of the general public whom do not even go outdoors. When all else fails and the grid drops out we will all be glad someone is at the summit connecting the dots.
    Last edited by skiguy; 12-09-2016 at 11:56 AM.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  7. #82
    Senior Member Raven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dug View Post
    Interesting angle they used, to offload the summit burden.
    I'll be impressed if all the straw men in that argument can stand up in the windiest place on Earth.
    Humankind has not woven the web of life.
    We are but one thread within it.
    Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.
    All things are bound together.
    All things connect.
    ~ Chief Seattle, 1854 ~

  8. #83
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    Yes, the economics of the summit are confusing. People see what they see and hear what they hear, all within a confirmation bias depending on what they think they already know.

    The State has had NHSP staff full time on the summit for many, many , many years, more like DECADES. They are there not exclusively there for S&R, but for the building infrastructure that includes heat, electrical power, water and septic. The generators are still there, and necessary for when power from the valley quits. They are there to make sure the septic system doesn't fail. Each of the NHSP personnel on the summit are fully trained to bring the generators on line, and to manage and trouble shoot the septic system. MWOBS leases their space in the Sherman Adams building, and their lease specifies that the utilites will be provide by the State. In the winter, there are 2 NHSP staff to maintain the required infrastructure.

    OBS has the big white Bombardier 10 pax snow-cat. The State has a small ancient ( green) Thiokol 2 person tracked cat, and @ 5 years ago, they lucked into a larger " cat " ( used from a ski area) with a push-blade that seats 3 plus operator. That one is bright yellow.

    The ONE person who knows the most about summit operations, Mike Pelchat, has just retired, and there is no one else with his experience or knowledge in the pipeline. If I were to name another person even CLOSE to Mike's knowledge about summit ops, and JUST/ONLY in relation to the Sherman Adams Building I'd have to go back to Ken Rancourt, former director of MWOBS, and he retired @ 5 years ago.

    So, there is a wide open and very deep trench of < who knows what the real scoop) is when brought up by Presby and Co.

    Obs staff in relation to S&R are on their own, because it is totally volunteer service for them. If they feel they are not qualified for search and rescue, they are certainly in no way required or pressured to serve.

    Fact of the matter is, on the east flank of MW, USFS is the responsible party for winter S&R, and ALL other assistance is " volunteer".

    Three years ago, and for 2 years running, both the Auto Road and the Cog provided " tickets" to their riders to be used at the summit as a means of keeping track of the " paid" guests vs the walk-in guests. That went nowhere, because the tickets were left in the car, left on the train, tossed in a wastebasket or left on a table with coffee cups and soda cans. Just more paper to be lugged down the hill in trash.

    It does remain to be seen what happens when public comment is opened for this proposal.

  9. #84
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    Hmmh, I thought the state moved staff in year round over the winter after the generator fire, I remember seeing some complaints about the added cost for the winter staffing in some Mt Washington Commission minutes in the past.

  10. #85
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    I think the argument that the hotel will take pressure off the summit is a stretch at best. Nobody is going to go to the hotel and stop there. At some point, the highlight of their trip will be to visit the summit. I have no horse in this race, to be honest, it won't effect me either way. I've always accepted the mountain for what it is, this is just another ring in the circus to me. I haven't signed any petitions and don't plan too.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    The whole economics of the summit are confusing. Presby's claim is the state park runs at a loss yet there are two profitable tourist businesses whose success is directly related to the summit and what Presby described as numerous public and private telecom towers on the summit.
    Presby's claim is correct, as far as state bookkeeping goes; the Mount Washington State Park has been represented as a loss. That said, the state does some accounting techniques that no private sector business could ever get away with. For instance, the state represents Cannon as a "profitable" (in good snow years) business by offloading millions of dollars of expenses to Sunapee and DOT. Presby is well aware of the state's accounting tactics, as he was reportedly the winning bidder to rebuild Cannon's crumbling infrastructure at not cost to taxpayers back in 1998 (a bureaucrat yanked his winning bid just prior to stepping on stage to announce it).

    Presby is also well aware of the government politics on Mt. Washington, as his original Cog skiing plan was shot down when the Forest Service stationed rangers to stop Cog passengers from skiing in the 1980s: https://books.google.com/books?id=Ov...page&q&f=false

    One weekend last spring, skiers arriving at the top by cog rail (and via the Mt. Washington Auto Road) saw a line of Rangers deployed along the White Mountain National Forest border like custom guards strung along the Rio Grande. Skiers go to play illegals, ordered to turn back or be arrested, a scene without precedent in the history of U.S. skiing.
    "Ironic. The Forest Service says we can ride to the top on the train. And it says it's okay to ski down the mountain. But it says, 'Don't do both on the same day.'"

  12. #87
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    When all else fails and the grid drops out we will all be glad someone is at the summit connecting the dots.
    I don't quite get this. Who'll be connecting dots?

    I don't think the Obs staff has any skill/training in maintaining sophisticated comm gear. They work hard to keep the web cams (esp Wildcat's) online.

    Without MTW on the summit is there a broadcast eng or RF person available on a daily basis.

    WRT Research: Of the 5 projects listed on the web site, only one involves an external (to NH) entity. Most are UNH system-related.

    Like space exploration, the summit Obs could probably be automated, especially if a non-mechanical wind speed measurement system (doppler?) was available. Keeping a crew of 5 people alive and comfortable in that environment is very expensive. And lacking lots of paying research projects makes it even more difficult.

    cb
    Nobody told me there'd be days like these
    Strange days indeed -- most peculiar, mama
    .

  13. #88
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    https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...O1I/story.html

    Doing the math from the graphic, traffic into the summit not associated with the Cog or the auto road is 90,000.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...O1I/story.html

    Doing the math from the graphic, traffic into the summit not associated with the Cog or the auto road is 90,000.
    Note that the article also states that AMC has dropped plans for another hut in Crawford Notch

  15. #90
    Moderator bikehikeskifish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...O1I/story.html

    Doing the math from the graphic, traffic into the summit not associated with the Cog or the auto road is 90,000.
    90,000 entered the Sherman Adams building. I've been up there many times and not gone in, mainly because I had Gryffin with me and he's not allowed.

    Tim
    Bike, Hike, Ski, Sleep. Eat, Fish, Repeat.

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