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Thread: More trail closings?

  1. #16
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    Tom and Field trailheads are on AMC property (which will be mobbed). The Highland Center AMC lot used to be posted for guests only but never enforced. I did not see the signage when I was there earlier this winter (but wasnt looking very hard. The parking at the former railroad station is not signed and is not WMNF.

    Therefore the WMNF can not close them unless AMC is on board. It is interesting to note that the Webster Jackson Trailhead is listed as closed despite being on State of NH Property.
    Last edited by peakbagger; 04-25-2020 at 05:21 AM.

  2. #17
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    Plenty of open areas. The cog will make some money selling access permits since they have access to Jewell and Ammo trails and thus the Mt Washington concession. The RT2 trail heads are open. the Franconia Parkway lots are open. Moosilaukee is mostly open. I also got a kick at the Starr King Closure, most folks park along RT2 in the public lots and walk up to the summer trailhead. I guess if there is a gate they can lock they will. Note the Hancock Notch parking at the hairpin is not closed.

    Just going to be a mess this weekend as the crowds arrive and have to find alternative places to go.
    So what was the goal of this order?? Take a huge piece of land where people can easily get out and socially distance, close it and funnel everyone to a handful of already hugely congested areas like Appalachia, Franconia, etc? How soon until those areas are closed because of social distancing problems and there are no options left? Seems counter productive.

    I'd also be curious to see how many out of staters who are not even aware of this show up to hike and find closure notices everywhere. That should go over well. Someone has to post pictures from Appalachia and the Highland Center today.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 48/48; ME 4k: 2/14; VT 4k: 1/5; ADK 46: 6/46; Cat 3.5k 10/35

  3. #18
    Senior Member Early Bird's Avatar
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    These closures seem like nonsense to me. I haven't changed my hiking patterns and although some trails seem more popular, it has not been hard for me to social distance. I get out early or at odd times and park in the parking lot. I've worn a buff over my face as I pass others. Others give clearance or turn their backs. Before reading the list of closures I would have guessed Franconia Notch would have been closed. I hiked Kearsarge N at 2 PM, with 2 other cars in the lot on a Sunday. Looks like I will be getting dropped off at trailheads. Even the CDC recommends staying active and getting outside. Now that is being made more challenging. I have also read more than 1 article bout how unlikely it is to catch the virus while outdoors to begin with.

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019.../visitors.html
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  4. #19
    Senior Member B the Hiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    How soon until those areas are closed because of social distancing problems and there are no options left? Seems counter productive.
    I know you have had a conversation on another posting about staying at home--which many of us believe is needed to prevent the spread of the pandemic--so I will just answer your question and leave it at that: The goal is to leave hikers no options so they stay at home.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    sigh, big f&(*()& sigh. You wonder if the goal is get everyone on the few that are open. If I drive from CT and find three trailheads closed, will I just go home or find an open one? I suspect that most of the ones not mentioned are regulated by the AMC as they lead to huts. The facilities have been closed since March. Better late than never by the USFS, what did they really think was going to happen a month ago.

    I'm hoping to camp in late June, I wonder how this late notice will work? The dates on the website for no reservations only goes to 5/1, I suspect it will be pushed back but to when?

    Disclaimer, while I think those who are protesting the states trying to keep people are alive are idiots and in most cases, politically opposite of my views, (so a small part of me is okay with them gathering all together to infect themselves....) as they keep ramping up the restrictions, I'm at least thinking of their POV. Are people hiking today, tomorrow and next week basically protesting this notice? Not sure the local USFS and local police & garages have the ability to block all the lots, ticket all of the lots and tow all the cars?

    As for myself, today the CT River's Council is Virtual Camping, so I am camping in my own backyard. I refuse to wear a mask though while camping in my own backyard. Here's my site, now if I can only get some scouts to portage my canoe the mile and a quarter to navigable water.Click image for larger version. 

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    BTW, the campsites at present closed through 5/14.
    Have fun & be safe
    Mike P.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Barkingcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psmart View Post
    Looks like the link to Exhibit A is finally working: https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE...eprd729238.pdf

    FYI, the closure cites 36 CFR 261.53(e) Special closures
    When provided in an order, it is prohibited to go into or be upon any area which is closed for the protection of Public health or safety.
    So, if I interpret this correctly: it doesn't matter how one enters the WMNF (a trail on private property, or being dropped off by someone so as not to park at a trailhead), it is illegal to be in the WMNF during this time -- correct?

  7. #22
    Senior Member maineguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barkingcat View Post
    So, if I interpret this correctly: it doesn't matter how one enters the WMNF (a trail on private property, or being dropped off by someone so as not to park at a trailhead), it is illegal to be in the WMNF during this time -- correct?
    I interpret "area" to mean the trailhead, unless otherwise specifically noted, like the Tuckerman area. If some trailheads are open, it cannot mean the order is meant to restrict all access to the WMNF. You have to wonder what kind of "thought" went into this order. Probably the same kind that went into the decisions to remove the Pemi bridges.
    Last edited by maineguy; 04-25-2020 at 08:54 AM.

  8. #23
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maineguy View Post
    I interpret "area" to mean the trailhead, unless otherwise specifically noted, like the Tuckerman area. If some trailheads are open, it cannot mean the order is meant to restrict all access to the WMNF. You have to wonder what kind of "thought" went into this order. Probably the same kind that went into the decisions to remove the Pemi bridges.
    Okay, I need a biting my tongue emoji. USFS is doing their best to define local. Local is not all cars from your state, it's not places you can drive to and back on a tank of gas, it's not places you can drive to. (Yes the 48 States, Canada, Mexico & Alaska are all walkable with enough time) It's geared toward trailheads because they can't chase people through 770,000 sq. miles of National Forest. It doesn't include F-Notch because they don't control those lots, surprised the State of NH hasn't closed. Can they block a few lots, yes. Can they tow vehicles, you bet. If you've ever had your car towed because you were parked illegally, you know that sucks. I doubt they can monitor all the lots on any single day. You might get lucky one day & park at the Blank Blank lot on Saturday without an incident, tomorrow your car may be towed 30 miles to a garage. If you get out of the woods and the garage is closed, you got problems. Local may now mean, if your car gets towed and the garage is closed at 6:00 PM when you get out of the woods, can you walk home?
    Have fun & be safe
    Mike P.

  9. #24
    Senior Member maineguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    : :

    Okay, I need a biting my tongue emoji. USFS is doing their best to define local. Local is not all cars from your state, it's not places you can drive to and back on a tank of gas, it's not places you can drive to. (Yes the 48 States, Canada, Mexico & Alaska are all walkable with enough time) It's geared toward trailheads because they can't chase people through 770,000 sq. miles of National Forest. It doesn't include F-Notch because they don't control those lots, surprised the State of NH hasn't closed. Can they block a few lots, yes. Can they tow vehicles, you bet. If you've ever had your car towed because you were parked illegally, you know that sucks. I doubt they can monitor all the lots on any single day. You might get lucky one day & park at the Blank Blank lot on Saturday without an incident, tomorrow your car may be towed 30 miles to a garage. If you get out of the woods and the garage is closed, you got problems. Local may now mean, if your car gets towed and the garage is closed at 6:00 PM when you get out of the woods, can you walk home?
    I need a "no S&^%$#@T" emoji: I know what they are trying to do. If they are trying to get people to stay at home, then just shut all trailheads, facilities, etc and be done with it. I don't see it as their job to try to selectively enforce an order from the state of NH. I mean, let's get real. Criminals are being let out of jail, and civilians are being told to stay home

    And it's hard to comply with because Americans aren't used to just taking orders from the government without some kind of explanation, and one that makes some sense to them. And don't just believe the experts. Just look at some of the statistics from this virus and then look at the models that predicted wildly different things.
    Last edited by maineguy; 04-25-2020 at 09:47 AM.

  10. #25
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJsName View Post
    It's the old battle between the spirit of a rule and the letter of a rule. Anyone who codes can appreciate how hard it is to get the letter of the rule perfect, as it often include creating definitions, which creates exceptions, and pretty soon you're wasting a lot of time with semantics. Like when a mom tells her kid to 'go outside' and the kid crawls through a window because 'You didn't say how!', when using the door should have been obvious, yet it wasn't explicit. So, I sympathize with someone trying to write these orders, so long as they are trying and competent.
    Aw come on!!

    There are active Stay at Home orders in all New England states.

    So by just showing up in the Whites hikers are violating a simple request to satisfy their need to "recreate."

    It does not matter if you think you can effectively social distance on the trail or not. All you've been asked to do is limit your mobility and recreate locally for a few weeks to help contain a killer virus. Why is that so freakin hard to comply with?

    How many stories of intubation, weird blood clotting, non-symptomatic spreaders and death do we need to read before we take it all seriously?

    If you need another one: check out this 40-year-old Maine-based Marine survival instructor. He made it through several tours in Iraq and Afghanistan before his almost fatal fight with this virus.
    Last edited by ChrisB; 04-25-2020 at 09:59 AM.
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  11. #26
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    It does not matter if you think you can effectively social distance on the trail or not. All you've been asked to do is limit your mobility and recreate locally for a few weeks to help contain a killer virus. Why is that so freakin hard to comply with?
    Right, seems some are quick to judge other people's "local" but not their own. Most if not all of us know what they mean, yet even here, people in this thread or other thread have wanted to define local as something they can do. (No stops for gas from home to trailhead, in-state but still several miles, etc.) I wish we were all driving, my portfolio is too heavily invested in the Oil Patch. I'm driving to stores outside of my town because my local store has no frozen peas & I'm still under 200 miles for the month, it's usually over 1000 and close to 2000 if their is a White Mountain or ADK trip.

    What's incredibly troublesome with this bug is that for every Marine or Service man on a Carrier that are in peak shape yet still severely hit or killed by this, there are many who seemingly have few or no signs of infection. NY State is finding people who have antibodies who were asymptomatic. There could be 1000's of Covid-19 Charlie's (Typhoid Mary has been used - 10's of thousands worldwide) walking around just fine and if they see their relatives or co-workers and spread it to them, they wouldn't even know it until that person or a person in that person's family or further downstream became ill. Certainly being younger and fit is better than being frail with other conditions, however, some of the conditions people have do not seem to manifest themselves in their normal day to day life before Covid-19 until it is combined with Covid-19and the combination is either fatal or if not fatal life altering.

    I don't know how bars and restaurants open up with like they were before. A crowded sports bar sounds like a breeding ground for Covid-19
    Last edited by Mike P.; 04-25-2020 at 10:38 AM.
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  12. #27
    Senior Member dailey7779's Avatar
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    I went to Appalachia today. When I arrived at 7:30AM there were about six other cars. Lot was full but not overflowing at 12:30PM when I left. 9 cars from MA, one from RI, and a couple from VT and ME. On the way up I saw three guys early on in jeans and sneakers who turned around within a mile. Ran into six hikers above treeline, a group of four who knew their stuff, and two solo hikers who most likely were not local from the absurd questions they asked me. On the way down I ran into one seasoned hiker and then two different groups of four who had no right being on the mountain.

    Over the past month I had been hiking Imp, Pine Mountain, Moriah, and in the Great Gulf. Had a nice little routine going with my dog, can't drive to 3/4 of those anymore, luckily no matter what I can walk to Moriah if more lot closures happen.

    I'm not surprised of the closures but I'm pretty furious about the people I've observed over FB, IG, and Strava who just couldn't hike or run local during this time. This time a year I start craving dry trails to run instead of the rotting snow, but you don't see me heading to the Belknaps or Monadnock as it's not local to me, I stayed local and now those close ones are taken away from me. So, yeah I'm pissed off a little right now at people.
    Last edited by dailey7779; 04-25-2020 at 12:37 PM.

  13. #28
    Senior Member Salty's Avatar
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    I had to go in to work today (Manchester) and I am not kidding that at 11:00, at least 1/4 of the cars heading north on 93 had Mass. plates on them. And there was a fair bit of traffic heading that way.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dailey7779 View Post
    I went to Appalachia today. When I arrived at 7:30AM there were about six other cars. Lot was full but not overflowing at 12:30PM when I left. 9 cars from MA, one from RI, and a couple from VT and ME. On the way up I saw three guys early on in jeans and sneakers who turned around within a mile. Ran into six hikers above treeline, a group of four who knew their stuff, and two solo hikers who most likely were not local from the absurd questions they asked me. On the way down I ran into one seasoned hiker and then two different groups of four who had no right being on the mountain.
    How can you do that! Since I'm staying put adding significance to a tiny parcel of land in my town I've been hiking several times a week, like it's the divide between the Deep River Reservoir/Yantic River Thames Watershed and the Jeremy River/Salmon River, CT River Watershed... What were the absurd questions!

    If we went back in time could we persuade Zuckerburg to do something else. FB is not an advance in society,...… (where is that biting my tongue emoji) Not everyone from one of those states deserve the nickname they have when driving, however how did nine hikers, more if they car pooled figure out Appalachia is local to their state? I'm not sure it's local to Gorham, I'd hate riding my bike by the hill on Route 2 to get there.

    I hope they are peakbaggers, won't they be in for a surprise when they submit their paperwork.
    Last edited by Mike P.; 04-25-2020 at 01:11 PM.
    Have fun & be safe
    Mike P.

  15. #30
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    Interestingly, I see more people jogging and walking around my neighborhood, so people are staying local. I'd also tell you that the people I see in my neighborhood are more likely to have a pre-existing condition, but the road is wide so it's not an issue.
    Have fun & be safe
    Mike P.

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