Wanted: Hardcore Hardshell. No Go-Lites Need Apply.

Gearheads, I need your help. The time has come to replace my ancient, much beloved Marmot hardshell. The newer Marmot hardshell that I bought a few years back has never truly satisfied me, although it is very serviceable in almost all respects. Here's what I want:

1. Long, honest-to-God, oldtime mountain parka, cut for layering, that will cover my nether parts down to my thighs. No waist-length pretenders need apply.

2. Hood has room for a helmet and has a serious throat/lower jaw/lower face flap with Velcro or the like.

3. Cuffs with Velcro closures, said closures being the wider the better.

4. Bombproof zipper with Velcro storm flap. Don't want to truck with snaps. (Don't need an inner zipper for a fleece liner, but it's okay if included.) Also, must have pit zips. (I dislike chest vent zips and chest pocket zips, 'cause they're openings for wind. I prefer the retro, square pockets on the bottom instead, but apparently that ship has sailed .....)

5. Gore-Tex XCR or something that is truly capable of meeting or exceeding that standard. For instance, no Helly Hansen need apply. (Anybody want to buy a pair of HH pants in good condition?)

6. Outer shell is capable of standing up to years of abusive "tree-tment" in the dead of night. No softshell or Paclite or any of their ilk need apply. (Think Mountain Hardwear Nexus, instead.)

I care naught about the weight. I want the best weather protection and the most durable construction available.

Oh, and a good chunk of it has to be colored French red or the like; the rest can be black.

Examples that appear to meet the requirements are Mammut Logan and Arc'teryx Alpha SV. Anything else out there?

sardog1 said:

Gearheads, I need your help. The time has come to replace my ancient, much beloved Marmot hardshell. The newer Marmot hardshell that I bought a few years back has never truly satisfied me, although it is very serviceable in almost all respects. Here's what I want:

Click to expand...

I went through the same agony a year or so ago. It was very disappointing--as far as I can tell, the designers of the current shells never used one in winter or bad weather...

1. Long, honest-to-God, oldtime mountain parka, cut for layering, that will cover my nether parts down to my thighs. No waist-length pretenders need apply.

Click to expand...

All the shells I looked at were too short--mid or top of pants pocket instead of mid-thigh.

4. Bombproof zipper with Velcro storm flap. Don't want to truck with snaps. (Don't need an inner zipper for a fleece liner, but it's okay if included.) Also, must have pit zips. (I dislike chest vent zips and chest pocket zips, 'cause they're openings for wind. I prefer the retro, square pockets on the bottom instead, but apparently that ship has sailed .....)

Click to expand...

I prefer snaps here--I dislike the way velcro grabs whether you want it to or not--like when you are trying to lower the zipper. But I agree 100% with you on pockets: 4 square--2 chest and 2 big stomach. With velcro flaps. Pockets are NOT vents. And mesh pockets will last 5 or 10 minutes if you are lucky...

5. Gore-Tex XCR or something that is truly capable of meeting or exceeding that standard. For instance, no Helly Hansen need apply. (Anybody want to buy a pair of HH pants in good condition?)

Click to expand...

Gore-Tex has always worked for me.

6. Outer shell is capable of standing up to years of abusive "tree-tment" in the dead of night. No softshell or Paclite or any of their ilk need apply. (Think Mountain Hardwear Nexus, instead.)

Click to expand...

Hear! Hear!

I care naught about the weight. I want the best weather protection and the most durable construction available.

Click to expand...

I care some about the weight, but function first.

Examples that appear to meet the requirements are Mammut Logan and Arc'teryx Alpha SV. Anything else out there?

Click to expand...

I ended up buying an inferior design because that was all I could find at a reasonable price.

Sorry--don't have any answers, just commiserations...

Doug

My vote goes to MH Sub Zero,or Exposure II. Velcro at the cuffs,pit zips,wind blocking inner closure at the waist,hood with room and good adjustments,pockets everywhere,inside and out.Zips easy(shielded),good length.
Wind blowing 30+ at 0o in Feb on Ike,and we were toasty.

The EMS Expedition Gortex jacket seems to have a lot of the features you are looking for....I'm not sure though if it comes in the color you are looking for. The hood adjustments are great and it works real well with a helmet, velcro on the sleeves, side vents, fleece face flap, etc. The lenght is just above mid-thigh...I had a real hard time finding anything that was parka lenght (which is what I had wanted).

Good luck and happy shopping!

-MEB

Bean has one that's close, but probably not long enough.
http://www.llbean.com/webapp/wcs/st...roogle&storeId=1&catalogId=1&categoryId=38180

I am watching this thread. May I inquire about good pair of pants to go with such a Hardshell. I am considering Marmot precips.

Integral Designs makes Parkas and overpants expressly for SAR and Ranger folks. They will even seam seal the patches.
http://www.integraldesigns.com/product_detail.cfm?id=707
http://www.integraldesigns.com/product_detail.cfm?id=709

Thanks to all who responded; I'm looking into your suggestions.

As for the PreCip pants referred to above, IMO they're a little light for the (ab)use I was describing. A better match from Marmot would be the Climbing Pant. (It is about twice the price of the PreCip, though.) Similar durable, waterproof/breathable pants and bibs are available from several sources, e.g., Mountain Hardwear, The North Face, Moonstone, etc., plus the Integral Designs number listed above. The general category is sometimes called "mountain pants." It's odd, but it's easier to find pants that meet my requirements than a parka these days.

DougPaul said:

I went through the same agony a year or so ago. It was very disappointing--as far as I can tell, the designers of the current shells never used one in winter or bad weather...


All the shells I looked at were too short--mid or top of pants pocket instead of mid-thigh.

I ended up buying an inferior design because that was all I could find at a reasonable price.

Sorry--don't have any answers, just commiserations...

Doug

Click to expand...

Doug, what did you buy? I'll be needing a new shell come next winter.

Seeker said:

Doug, what did you buy? I'll be needing a new shell come next winter.

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Brenda,

I hunted all over and couldn't find definite id on the shell (checked receipt, etc). Needless to say, the shell itself isn't labeled. Also checked the Internet Archive, but screwups kept me from seeing the listings of interest.

I think it is an REI Liberty Ridge (might be a Switchback). Too short (had to get a large for the length, girth too big), bad pocket arrangement, etc. Since I couldn't get what I wanted, I wasn't going to spend the big bucks for it. (It was also on sale.)

Also needless to say, the shell/jacket is not currently on the REI website. I think it has been discontinued.

In any case, it was one of the REI higher-end shells.

Grump, grump, grump... They used to know how to make decent shells...

Doug

Don't know that they're available any longer, but my Moonstone Momentum is mid-thigh, or thereabouts. Old school, beefy three-ply Gortex.

It's great for winter hiking. But not so convenient when wearing a harness w/leg loops - ie when ice climbing, doing glacier travel, etc; the more form-fitted, shortie jackets seem to work better for those activities.

linehant said:

Don't know that they're available any longer, but my Moonstone Momentum is mid-thigh, or thereabouts. Old school, beefy three-ply Gortex.

It's great for winter hiking. But not so convenient when wearing a harness w/leg loops - ie when ice climbing, doing glacier travel, etc; the more form-fitted, shortie jackets seem to work better for those activities.

Click to expand...

I simply wore my harness over my thigh-length shell for NE ice climbing. Worked well enough. Certainly if one wants to be able to take the shell on and off, the shorter length would be more convient.

In my recent searches, everything I looked at was shorter. Perhaps to save weght, perhaps to reduce costs, perhaps (misguided) fashion. I was told the reason for abandoning the nice rectangular stomach pockets was that they interfered with a packbelt. (Never had that problem--I aways just put the belt under the front of the shell unless it was very windy--then the belt went over the shell.) The replacement strategy ends up putting multiple chest pockets on top of each other, thus interfering with each other. Then the brain-dead strategy of mesh pockets...

I'd have no objection to the new style if the old style were still available for us dinosaurs. That way we could pick whichever we want.

Anyhoo, enough ranting for the moment...

Doug

good luck finding a thigh length shell. this past winter i moved up to a marmot aplinist (XCR) shell from an older mtn hardware (conduit) and i couldn't be happier. it's a meduim and the length goes to the top of my thighs.

it's a freaking bomb shelter!!! i wore it this past may on denali and it kept out all the nasty weather. we pushed from high camp (17,200) to base camp (7200) in 18 hours and the weather ranged from white out blizzard and super windy and freezing, the parka didn't bat an eye.

i picked mine up brand new on ebay for $200, not bad for a $425 coat.

darin

Doug,

A couple of thoughts....

1) Indeed, a quick search of the usual suspects does indeed suggest that fashion (and I repeat fashion) seems to be favoring shorter and trimmer cuts on the outer shells. I would blame the jardine-esque ultra lite movement combined with the ArcTerax/Cloudviel soft-shelled inspired reaction away from the big black arm and shoulder patch look that so dominated the look in the 90s with TNF and Mountain Hardware.

2) I would think you might see more selection starting in August and the major manufacturers roll out their fall lines. For ex, Patagonia and Marmot are showing next to nothign on their web sites. You definitely want something from an alpine type of collection and those usually appear end of summer/fall. Your search is coming at the time of the year when selection will be worst. [ASIDE: the big, big, big impact of IT on retail is closer control of inventory, so it is entirely to be expect that the big manufacturers will have less of last winter's inventory floating about in the summers than was the case even 10 years ago.]

3) In terms of pockets, I very much prefer *no* pockets at waist level as I want nothing to interfere with the pack belt in any way. I would even prefer an anorak design at this piont to get rid of the zipper at the hip belt. IMO, hip belts make this part of the zipper point less anyway. I very much prefer chest mounted pockets and I do like layered pockets. Specifically, I like "Napolean" or "reach-across" type zippers as they are much easier to get into when wearing a pack. I also like having small outer pockets on top of the main compartment for things like my sunglasses, which I don't want in the main cargo area. As for mesh pockets, I can go either way on that. They do help with vents.

4) The current LL Bean Mountain Guide XCR Parka looks (from the web site) to be the most old school design I saw in my brief surfing.

5) I would take a good look at Patagonia in the fall. Their Storm Jacket has remained the same basic cut for about 25 years. While that coat is not one for you to consider (2 layer coating, not 3 layer Goretex), it used to be (used to be is operative) that they would always have a bomber mountain parka with a similar basic cut.

dave.m said:

Doug,

A couple of thoughts....

1) Indeed, a quick search of the usual suspects does indeed suggest that fashion (and I repeat fashion) seems to be favoring shorter and trimmer cuts on the outer shells. I would blame the jardine-esque ultra lite movement combined with the ArcTerax/Cloudviel soft-shelled inspired reaction away from the big black arm and shoulder patch look that so dominated the look in the 90s with TNF and Mountain Hardware.

Click to expand...

Agreed--I've been of a similar opinion for quite a while. Lighter, cheaper to make. But some overlap is helpful in the rain or enough length can allow one to avoid using rainpants. I would just like to see a little more variety than the current minor variations on the same theme.

2) I would think you might see more selection starting in August and the major manufacturers roll out their fall lines. For ex, Patagonia and Marmot are showing next to nothign on their web sites. You definitely want something from an alpine type of collection and those usually appear end of summer/fall. Your search is coming at the time of the year when selection will be worst. [ASIDE: the big, big, big impact of IT on retail is closer control of inventory, so it is entirely to be expect that the big manufacturers will have less of last winter's inventory floating about in the summers than was the case even 10 years ago.]

Click to expand...

Also agreed. I bought my current shell during the end-of-winter 03-04 sales. (The old one (Goretex) had started to delminate and leak.) I'll wait until it starts dying before I get serious about looking. And who knows what will be in fashon by then...

3) In terms of pockets, I very much prefer *no* pockets at waist level as I want nothing to interfere with the pack belt in any way. I would even prefer an anorak design at this piont to get rid of the zipper at the hip belt. IMO, hip belts make this part of the zipper point less anyway. I very much prefer chest mounted pockets and I do like layered pockets. Specifically, I like "Napolean" or "reach-across" type zippers as they are much easier to get into when wearing a pack. I also like having small outer pockets on top of the main compartment for things like my sunglasses, which I don't want in the main cargo area. As for mesh pockets, I can go either way on that. They do help with vents.

Click to expand...

Sounds to me like we differ here. I like to carry quite a bit of stuff in my pockets--hat, gloves, lunch, etc and like the rectangular patch pockets for this purpose. Easy to get stuff in and out. The smaller chest pockets are good for a map, compass, etc. Just the way I learned and still my preferred way.

What I dislike about the Napolean pockets is that I find them harder to get stuff in and out, and if you have several things in there, some extras are likely to fall out when you try to pull one item out. And the layered pockets interfere with each other if you have a bunch of stuff in them. My biggest complaint against the mesh is durability. A bad place to carry keys.

4) The current LL Bean Mountain Guide XCR Parka looks (from the web site) to be the most old school design I saw in my brief surfing.

5) I would take a good look at Patagonia in the fall. Their Storm Jacket has remained the same basic cut for about 25 years. While that coat is not one for you to consider (2 layer coating, not 3 layer Goretex), it used to be (used to be is operative) that they would always have a bomber mountain parka with a similar basic cut.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestions and thoughts, I'll take a look.

I'm sure that, when it comes down to it, either of us (and a lot of others) can survive with either design. (I might even become a little less unhappy the the current shell as I get used to it!!!--but don't quote me.) But if there were a little more variety available, fewer of us would be unhappy with the offerings.

Doug

MEC Talisman. Long sizes available too. If you have a long neck, you might find that the throat closure doesn't come as high as you might want it. It's worth a look.

I was at REI recently and asked a salesman about shells most resembling sardog1's specs. Closest he could come up with (in the store) were the REI Switchback and the MH Exposure II.

Neither was a good match for sardog1's specs. The salesman also suggested that fashions change and who knows what they will be next year...

Doug