Back seat driver, Monday night Quarterback...

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Chip

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Okay, there have been a few accidents and rescues or rescue attempts.
Some may think it's inappropriate to second guess the cause, intentions, rescues, etc. but I'm sure there's something to be learned. There was the helicopter rescue off Algonquin last week (I don't know what happened there), the helicopter rescue attempt from Gothics this weekend (10 minutes unconcious and he's helped to walk part way out and spend the night in camp before being hospitalized the next day) and the solo hiker taken off Lafayette (nearly froze, lucky he was found). A few things come to mind;
- Were hikers trying to bag winter peaks before the end of the season ?
- Should day hikers carry enough gear to comfortably bivy all afternoon/evening ?
- Should the Gothics climber have been removed and hospitalized that afternoon, despite the failed helicopter attempt ?

After having done the Lafayette loop and the Algonquin loop recently by myself in less than ideal conditions, I've sworn off winter "solos". Winter can turn an inconvenience into a life threatening situation in a very short time.

I will apologize in advance to anyone reading this who was involved. I was not there and accidents happen. I am curious to see what can be learned to help prepare for or avoid a similar situation in the future.
 
I've sworn off winter "solos". Winter can turn an inconvenience into a life threatening situation in a very short time.
In reference to hiking SOLO any time of year...

You shouldn't drive on remote roads solo...
An animal could run out in front of you causing an accident. You could be sitting there for hours waiting for assistance. However, if you had someone in another car follow you, one of you could call, or go get help, if the other were in an accident.

You shouldn't fly a plane solo...
Some plane crashes aren't found for days or even months. However, if every plane had another flying alongside, the crew of one plane could report any mishaps the other had, including the location of crashes. Survivors could then be rescued almost immediately.

You shouldn't have a bowel movement solo...
Straining to have a bowel movement is a significant risk factor for heart attacks, especially in older people. Therefore, you should have someone there with you when you have a bowel movement as a precaution.

Just my $.02 worth.
 
Maybe we shouldn't ever solo but I have, would and will solo . . . I go prepared though. I carry a sleeping bag and closed foam pad on every winter hike, no matter how many people are with me. When solo, I also carry a stove, fuel and enough food for 1-2 days and about a half dozen chemical warmers. I haven't been hiking solo in a while but plan on doing a few solo trips every year, it gives me "something" I don't get when I am with others.

It is all a matter of risk and preparedness, consider the two and decide, each person's decision will be different since "risk" is relative to each individual.

sli74
 
NH_Mtn_Hiker said:
You shouldn't have a bowel movement solo...
Straining to have a bowel movement is a significant risk factor for heart attacks, especially in older people. Therefore, you should have someone there with you when you have a bowel movement as a precaution.


Hmmm.... Is that sort of like the "buddy system"?
 
I don't think the recent events were part of a pattern. I like to fly solo on the toilet bowl and in the bush (I mean the forest you perverts!) all year round. I don't carry overnight gear on winter day trips but maybe it's a good idea when it's really cold. My winter pack is already heavy enough.

The chances of something bad happening on a hike are very slim. Which is safer, hiking alone and being exposed to a certain amount of risk or hiking with a partner and doubling the chances that someone gets hurt (or tripling etc.)? I know, the other(s) can go for help but if you don't feel right about leaving the victim for whatever reason then the 2 of you are now at risk.

I bet the SAR people have interesting input on the question.
 
Neil said:
...Which is safer, hiking alone and being exposed to a certain amount of risk or hiking with a partner and doubling the chances that someone gets hurt (or tripling etc.)?...
Another great point. :)
For those that read my first post, that would correspond to multi-car accidents and mid-air collisions :eek:. In other words, taking a hiking partner with you could just be giving Mother Nature "two for the price of one".

...and I agree with forestnome. :)
 
NH_Mtn_Hiker said:
My Mother having had a fit the other night when she heard I was planning a solo Winter Pemi Loop has as much to do with my last post as Chip's post did. :eek: ;)
Probably better to solo dump on me than your mother...I guess.

I know the drive to the trail is more dangerous than the hike, but I don't believe 2 hikers are twice as dangerous as one, substantially less so, since one can help and react.

I think the one that really got me was the incomplete evacuation on Gothics. That guy had a HUGE fall, was unconcious for some length of time and was not hospitalized until the following day. I'm glad he didn't expire in camp from something internal.

The other aspect of hiking alone in winter is that it makes whoever I've notified very nervous until they hear from me, which in turn grates on my nerves. I know I'm fine, but they're going through all the "worst case" scenarios until I show up (THRILLED with the hike I'VE had) or can make the radio/cell call. So that's part of it also.

I'll say this also; Closing day/weekend of "Winter" peak-bagging reminds me a bit of "Opening Day" of the hunting season. There may be some over-achievers in the woods on these days.
 
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I solo alot in the winter. I do carry a decent amount of clothes but I do not carry a sleeping bag or foam pad, to each his own.
 
I think this is a worthwile discussion. Many people regard solo hiking as downright insane, any time of year, on-trail or off. I don't mind solo bushwhacks and tame (rather subjective adjective) solo winter hikes but soloing on steep ice or all alone on a big remote peak in harsh winter conditions is beyond my comfort zone. My wife dosn't like it when I do bushwhacks without a partner but I do my best to put all the odds on my side.
Chip said:
I know the drive to the trail is more dangerous than the hike, but I don't believe 2 hikers are twice as dangerous as one, substantially less so, since one can help and react.
I agree, in spite of my earlier post.
Chip said:
I think the one that really got me was the incomplete evacuation on Gothics. That guy had a HUGE fall, was unconcious for some length of time...
He had been assessed by the Rangers and then there was a doctor present at the camp who I bet did a thorough neuro check and repeatedly checked vital signs. Given the entire set of circumstances and perhaps the pain and other conditions (risk of shock maybe) they must have decided that the risk of a subdural hematoma was the lesser of the various evils.

When you go out on the slippery slope of life....
 
Extra gear peakbagging and risks

We're in a changing winter environment in two different areas:
1. Snowfall appears to far less than even a few years ago but there is much more water ice on trails; meaning there is less need to carry snowshoes and more need to carry and use crampons. Anecdotally, crampons have been far more responsible for accidents immobilizing a hiker (and thus putting them at risk) than snowshoes.
2. Trails are broken out much more than in the past so that hikers can be far more mobile and it is awfully tempting to take advantage of that by carrying less gear because (in terms of time) you are a lot closer to the trailhead and your car.

My observation/opinion is that hikers in 2006 are carrying (on the whole) smaller packs and less emergency gear than (say) 15 years ago.
An old opinion, still supported by many, is that each group should have sufficient equipment to safely spend a night in the woods because of the lengthy delay between suffering an injury and being able to summon rescue. Years ago that was obviously valid because there woul dusually be only one group (yours) on any peak.
There are a lot more people on the trails today and that means possible resuce and assistance is far closer and more likely. Cell phone may also help. IMO it is still necessary to carry enough extra gear to make it through the night (there is obviously some point at which this is overkill) but woul dlove to hear some other opinions.
 
Chip said:
I think the one that really got me was the incomplete evacuation on Gothics. That guy had a HUGE fall, was unconcious for some length of time and was not hospitalized until the following day. I'm glad he didn't expire in camp from something internal.

People need to and I think hopefully do understand that they are well outside of the Platinum 10 minutes as well as the Golden hour when they are in the woods. This guy was a candidate for a very serious head, neck, back and internal injuries obviously based upon the Mechanism of injury. He shouldn’t have even survived the fall, let alone a transport. He was also very fortunate that he had one person to stay with him and another to go get help. If there had been only one other person with him, and it was you, what would you do? Go for help, or stay with him? It’s great the doctor was at the lodge but the doctor can’t see into his skull to see if it is bleeding. You can tell if he is having problems. You can tell how he is trending. But you cannot really tell if he is going to have problems. I relate a story down below about a case to explain what I am referring to. That is why everything we do with trauma is based on (MOI) mechanism of injury, what happened and what kind of injuries might there be. If this happened at home and the helicopter was able to fly. I would have found the closest 100’ by 100’ field that we could have landed the copter and flew him immediately to a level I trauma hospital. Well Toto, you ain’t home, so now what are you going to do? You do the best that you can and you realize, that best, varies considerably from person to person. You also realize that all the medical support systems you take for granted aren’t available where you are. So, you try to make yourself as self sufficient as you can. Not just medically but in every aspect. You realize that if someone is hurt how much time are you going to waste trying to get to the trailhead to get help and then get that help back up to the victim because your cell phone doesn’t work. Worse yet will you have to leave him/her because you are the only one. How will that make you feel knowing they may be dead by the time you get back. Maybe not even directly from their injuries. Maybe hypothermia. Maybe if you insulated them better to stave off hypothermia they won’t die? If they are unconscious what good are you going to be sitting there, but if you leave how will you protect their airway at a minimum? Maybe all you need to do was position them correctly before you left and they wouldn’t have choked to death. Would you be doing the right thing if you used a safety pin to pin his tongue to his cheek to keep him from choking on it? I’m not telling you to do this but those holes will heal and the infection can be fought. Dead from having your airway closed off by his tongue for 8 hours (4 minutes is all it takes) can’t be fixed. You also need to realize that when you get to the rescuers, they will risk their lives for your friend but it is a careful equation that needs to be worked out and rushing in will not always be what happens. There are two types of patients that need to be rescued, stable and unstable patients. Stable patients, you can take time getting too and there is no point risking rescuers. Not being glib but dead and FTD (Fixin To Die) patients are stable. This is good, solid, thinking. It is used to triage patients all the time in multi casualty incidents. There is no rush or reason to risk rescuers needlessly to get to a scene that the patient doesn’t stand a chance or is already dead. Even if they are unstable, and need help immediately, environmental factors or other reasons may delay responses as well. Read a book, take a class. Learn alternate means of communications. Learn basic lifesaving skills. Learn how to improvise a hypothermia wrap. Learn how to improvise a camp with decent shelter in case you need to stay out for a while with some who needs help. All of these skills make hiking/camping more enjoyable to me.

Also, I camp and hike solo all the time. I understand there are more risks associated with it, as I am sure most do, but I try to mitigate it as best I can. I also am not so goal driven any more that I fail to see dangers. I carry equipment to get in touch with people if I have an emergency (I’m sure by now most realize it’s not a cell phone :eek: ) and can’t self rescue or am just going to be delayed. Extra food and clothing to use if I am not unconscious and I realize that is a possible weak point in the plan. My wife knows that I should be able to get a hold of her in an emergency and if I can’t where I will be to send help. Would I survive if an accident was bad enough to make me unconscious and I was alone? Probably not, but that is hard to know. I only hope I have built up enough good juju that someone would come looking for me. :D

As promised I’ll you the story of a 58 y/o male who was struck by a pickup truck on a state highway in CT. Impact speed was believed to be around 35 MPH which is a pretty severe impact. EMT’s got to the scene and couldn’t tell who the victim was. There is this guy standing around smoking a cigarette. It finally comes to the crews’ attention that this is the victim. This guy has some bruising and soreness but no other complaints. For a 58 year old and tangling with a truck that is damaged pretty well he looks great. The crew follows his wishes and transports him to the nearest facility which wasn’t a level I trauma center. It's found out the next day he died in the hospital. Lots of doctors around. Still didn’t live. He had a ripped aorta. Very common trauma injury along with a fractured liver. When he crashed (in the medical sense), he crashed so fast they couldn’t do anything about it. Very sad but so this wouldn't have been for nothing it should be a cautionary tale. Some people can look great. Right up until the part were they die. Without a trauma surgeon around. It can be almost impossible to fix.

Also while I wasn't there and have no first hand knowledge, from what I read, it sounds like the crew who did the Franconia rescue did an outstanding job. Congrats to them.

Keith
 
Well, lots of different opinions on this issue. My answer is that it all depends on several factors: including weather forecast, and how remote, or how popular the trail is. I'm certainly not bashful about bagging a popular peak solo in good weather, and with minimal emergency gear. I would think long and hard before I got too far above treeline in poor weather, even with a companion.
 
I just want to comment that I appreciate the calm and respectful nature of this thread. When I read the first post, I expected a lot of discussion about whether or not those who got hurt recently had done something wrong or acted foolishly. I was pleasantly surprised to find the responses simultaneously educational and polite. I hope we can maintain this tone whenever this type of issue is discussed.
 
Umsaskis said:
I just want to comment that I appreciate the calm and respectful nature of this thread. When I read the first post, I expected a lot of discussion about whether or not those who got hurt recently had done something wrong or acted foolishly. I was pleasantly surprised to find the responses simultaneously educational and polite. I hope we can maintain this tone whenever this type of issue is discussed.
I agree and appreciate it also.

In my day pack I carry a VBL mummy bag, VBL socks, an old ensolite 3/8" (now about 1/4") body shaped pad, a spare change of socks and capilenes, spare fleece and enough first aid gear to stop the bleeding and start a fire.
If I'm really "out there" I also carry a spare MRE, water filter and light tarp. With the clothes I'm wearing I believe I or an injured party would be warm enough and maybe even comfortable for a while.
 
To quote a friend, some poeple are liabilities and others are assets.

How you are categorized depends on: what you know (skills), what you bring (gear), and whether or not you are willing to do something (motivation and decision making). Simply bringing the gear is not enough, you must know how to use it. The old timers didn't have synthetic fibers but they seemed to survive, at least until 35 or 40 years old. I guess they got that far on the "what you know" part.

Each hiker makes the choice on whether or not to carry enough gear to survive if immobilized. If you choose not to bring the gear, you're that much closer to being a liability.

Now the question on my mind is: Should those of us that are equipped feel obligated to help the people that intentionally enter the outdoor world under equipped? Or should we respect their decision to be naturally selected off of this planet?

Also, keeping in mind the number one rule of rescue, (never make a second victim), Should I retain my emergency gear for my own possible use and let the "liability" perrish so as not to risk my own life? Or should I apply my emergency gear and then if/when I need it, take it back for my own use? I do carry an extra, large garbage bag for distribution to others in need.

I guess you know how much gear I bring....

When I hear people mention "making a fire" to survive I chuckle. These people should try doing this and see how it works. So, after we eliminate all the areas above treeline (too windy, no wood), and the areas with deep snow (fire melts down and goes out), and the areas without dry adequate wood, whats left? Okay in NJ or Harriman, this might work, but then I'm crawling to the road in 2-4 hrs anyway. In high mountains of NH or the Dacks? You gotta be kidding! It's a solution that might work 5% of the time.

It's so much easier if everone is prepared, but the threads are more interesting with the imbalance.
 
This thread is pretty nice. Though provoking, differing views, but without the biting tone you sometimes see.

Personally, I would not hesitate to lend gear (even survival gear) to someone in need, even with the slight increased risk to myself. I, due to inexperience, tend to overpack in winter. This has to benefits I feel (so I still do it). It keeps my trip planning from getting out of hand. Meaning that since I know I'll be moving heavy, I won't bite off more than I can chew. It also, in the case of hiking with my family, allows me to cushion my pack and be even more over cautious about keeping THEIR safety a priority over mine.

In summer, the opposite is true. I pack very lightly. I tend to b-whack alot lately and the less bulky my pack, the easier I move. I also go out with the mentality, you MUST RETURN AT THE DESIGNATED TIME. This does a couple things for me. It forces me to be more cautious and to deliberately avoid situations that will prevent me from reaching that end result. That doesn't mean that I carry no survival gear, it just means that I run much closer to the redline than I would in winter.

For example, last year during a solo climb of the Nippletop Slide, I deliberately took a more far more conservative route than I would have had I been hiking with "my usual crew". I even left the slide track in a few spots down low and scratched my way through pretty thick stuff along the side, just because the rocks were a little wet and traction MIGHT have been an issue. Being alone and KNOWING I had no option other than reaching the top SAFELY and getting back to my car and "checking in" before dark, sorta forced a separate set of hike criteria be used. Not that I would have been reckless if others were there, but I might have felt comfortable (i.e. agressive) knowing that others were there if I busted a leg and I needed immediate aid.

Not sure that any of this makes sense, or if it's smart way to go or not, but is works for me. To this point anyway.
 
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