Cell Phone Pinging Cell Towers?

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A metal box may not actually be all that good a shield. RF leakage of a crack (or joint) in a metal box is more related its length rather than its area. Cellphone signals are UHF--unless the box is designed to be an RF shield it is most likely quite leaky. (You could try calling the phone in the box--if it rings, the box is clearly leaky.) A shielded box is sometimes called a Faraday cage.
With degrees in physics and EE I am quite familiar with the Faraday cage, which of course does not have to be solid. :) Some of the facilities I am in are indeed RF shielded, but I'm sure not all of the ante-rooms where we must leave electronics are in the shielded areas. It is possible that the storage boxes may well be designed to shield in those facilities, I don't know. All the boxes I've seen are quite substantially solid, though I doubt many are grounded as required for a true Faraday cage. Regardless, in every situation when I have mistakenly left the phone on, the battery noticeably drains rapidly, so I've assumed they acted as Faraday cages and the poor cell phone was expending energy trying desperately to get out. :rolleyes: Same as when I am in a no service area outside.
 
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911 Super-duper mode

I'd be interested in hearing how a cell phone handles 911 calls. I was involved in a very grave, nearly fatal accident deep in the woods. We knew there was no signal in the area when we set off , so we powered off the phone, but stuffed it in the pack. You never know.

Well, the time came, I bit the dust big time. A number of hikers came along and helped with some first aid, but it was clear I needed a rescue. At first they didn't want to leave me (it was that bad). Someone tried the cell phone, no signal, no bars, even moving much higher out of the ravine made no difference. One in the party ran down the 2 mile trail to get help. So one of the kids started messing with the phone, dialed 911 and then he cried "hey dad, there's someone talking". He handed the dad the phone, and the rescue coordination began. That's a complex, scary story in itself, save for another day.)

Anyways, the phone seemed to burst into super-duper power when 911 was keyed, even with no bars showing. I'm thankful that happened. Is there such a thing as super-duper mode, as opposed to max power you guys talk of?

BTW, triangulation was utterly useless. No surprise- I'm surprised it found even one signal. The SAR crews had to be escorted up the hill and could only communicate with hand held radios.
 
With degrees in physics and EE I am quite familiar with the Faraday cage, which of course does not have to be solid. :) Some of the facilities I am in are indeed RF shielded, but I'm sure not all of the ante-rooms where we must leave electronics are in the shielded areas. It is possible that the storage boxes may well be designed to shield in those facilities, I don't know. All the boxes I've seen are quite substantially solid, though I doubt many are grounded as required for a true Faraday cage.
Faraday cages/shielded boxes are designed to have at least a specified amount of attenuation over a specified frequency range and may leak (ie have less attenuation) outside of their design ranges.

Example: A microwave oven cavity has to have good shielding at its operating frequency (2.4GHz), yet my cellphone (multiband GSM) still operates (rings in response to a call) while in the oven cavity. (WARNING: if you try this, DO NOT turn the oven on--you will most likely destroy the phone and may set it on fire.)

BTW, Faraday cages don't have to be grounded, they merely have to isolate the internal EM environment from the external EM environment.

Regardless, in every situation when I have mistakenly left the phone on, the battery noticeably drains rapidly, so I've assumed they acted as Faraday cages and the poor cell phone was expending energy trying desperately to get out. :rolleyes: Same as when I am in a no service area outside.
Weak signals, as postulated in earlier posts, are certainly a plausible cause. However, the fact that it seems happen to you fairly reliably suggests that something else may be going on.

Doug
 
I'd be interested in hearing how a cell phone handles 911 calls. I was involved in a very grave, nearly fatal accident deep in the woods. We knew there was no signal in the area when we set off , so we powered off the phone, but stuffed it in the pack. You never know.
Me too...

Well, the time came, I bit the dust big time. A number of hikers came along and helped with some first aid, but it was clear I needed a rescue. At first they didn't want to leave me (it was that bad). Someone tried the cell phone, no signal, no bars, even moving much higher out of the ravine made no difference. One in the party ran down the 2 mile trail to get help. So one of the kids started messing with the phone, dialed 911 and then he cried "hey dad, there's someone talking". He handed the dad the phone, and the rescue coordination began. That's a complex, scary story in itself, save for another day.)
I had 1 bar at my accident site and 911 worked flawlessly.

Anyways, the phone seemed to burst into super-duper power when 911 was keyed, even with no bars showing. I'm thankful that happened. Is there such a thing as super-duper mode, as opposed to max power you guys talk of?
It is possible that the two phones used different providers and the first had no coverage but the second did. Or maybe the second phone had a better transmitter/receiver/antenna than the first. IIRC, in the discussions following my accident someone commented that a 911 call gets some form of (electronic) priority, but I don't remember the details. In any case, it is certainly worth a try or two.

BTW, triangulation was utterly useless. No surprise- I'm surprised it found even one signal. The SAR crews had to be escorted up the hill and could only communicate with hand held radios.
I passed trail directions to the 911 operator. (I was sitting on the trail and easy to find.) As a backup, I gave my GPS coordinates and my datum to the operator--she did not know what a datum was... (Make sure you also give the datum--I simply told her to pass it along with the coordinates. Hopefully any rescuer using a GPS knows what it is...)

BTW, multilateration can have an accuracy of up to ~50 meters in urban areas with a high tower density but is less accurate in rural areas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking The accuracy can also be degraded by terrain.

Note: the 911 operator will try to keep you on the line until the rescuers arrive. It may be worth working out a schedule for breaking and reestablishing contact if battery life is likely to be a problem.

Doug
 
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Anyways, the phone seemed to burst into super-duper power when 911 was keyed, even with no bars showing. I'm thankful that happened. Is there such a thing as super-duper mode, as opposed to max power you guys talk of?

Dialing 911 does not make your phone put out more power, but there are special features.

1. All towers leave some spare bandwidth for 911 calls; nobody who is dialing any other number can get access to this bandwidth. It is also reasonable to assume that tower may apply special enhancement techniques for 911 calls since dropped 911 call statistics are tracked by the FCC.


2. Both Verizon and ATT regularly update a database in your phone called PRL (verizon) or IRDB (att). If another company wants to charge Verizon or ATT too much for supporting a roaming customer, Verizon/ATT can forbid your phone from ever registering with this company's network by leaving them out of the database. Attention travelers: ATT also uses this to keep phones on only the European networks which give ATT the most $$$.

Dialing 911 overrides the permissions in the PRL/IRDB databases.

Hypothetically, if you are an ATT customer you MAY see "No Service" on your phone even though you are 5 feet away from a compatible T-mobile tower.

This could happen if ATT blacklists T-mobile in the database If you dial 911, the phone will ignore the database, register with the T-mobile tower, and complete your call.

Caveat: I do not know if ATT blocks other GSM providers but they will certainly make you stick to a weak-signaled ATT tower before they allow you to join a strong T-mobile tower.


Bottom line:
If you need 911 you might try it even if the phone says no service.
 
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Thanks!

Hey Remix, Thanks a lot for the explanation, that helps a lot.

But it leaves me with one big question. How come your bottom line message is not widely publicized? Afterward, I looked in my manual and read the entire Verizon web site and found nothing about using 911.

Trying 911, bars or no bars could save a life. It seems downright stupid not to make that information more widely known. My crew certainly had no knowledge of that.

I would much prefer a beacon since they require much less thought and are widely reliable. But they are so damn expensive.

Hey DougPaul, sorry to hear of the mishap. What happened? You're lucky you could still dial and talk.
 
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I would much prefer a beacon since they require much less thought and are widely reliable. But they are so damn expensive.
A PLB is more reliable in the BC, but only gives out a one-way general distress message with location and a radio beacon. When it works, a cellphone (or 2-way radio) is preferable because you can have a 2-way conversation with your rescuers.

Hey DougPaul, sorry to hear of the mishap. What happened? You're lucky you could still dial and talk.
Happened in 2007--a blowdown jumped out and grabbed my ski resulting in a broken femur, hip, and wrist (all closed). The dialing, yapping, and thinking mechanisms were not damaged... Fortunately 911 worked, but another skier arrived a few minutes after the crash--he would have been able to ski out for help if need be (<2hrs). I had enough junk in my pack to stabilize me on scene until the evac crew arrived. Lots of detail in the following threads: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15911 and http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15891

Doug
 
Brain Injury considerations

I'm late to the party, but I'd like to add my $0.02, FWIW. I read Doug's threads in full. In all cases, the discussion seems mostly limited to broken bones, which clearly the vast majority of hiking accidents. I'd like to contribute to the discussion and add a few little insights as to what happens in the case of a brain injury. This is first hand experience. This is without the details, just providing the learning I had from this expereince.

First, it's a situation where every minute counts. Since so much of it is internal, the situation can, and often is grave. It is extremely difficult to gauge if this is a mild, medium or severe concussion, or perhaps worse. Of course there are some limited outward signs. In this case, help is hours away.

I'm not going to get into the process of assessment and stabilization. That is fairly well understood by this group. I'd however like to share some of the things that can go wrong and what one can do to prevent them. None of these items is necessarily in any order of response.


WFA training does not really cover much about this, especially when help is hours away. After taking WFA there after, it became very clear to me that WFA First Responder would be vastly superior in these situation.

Consider the case of the victim is WFA trained but nobody else in the crew knows what to do. You can delirious, unconscious or otherwise unable to direct the crew , you may be hosed.

Hypothermia can happen any month of the year, in any condition. Don't underestimate the importance of preventing this. Placing the victim on what looks to be a nice soft mossy ground is one of the worst things you can do. A pad is probably the best solution, but there are other inventive forms of protection. For another day.

In addition to the pad, a reflective blanket, a change out of sweaty or wet clothes (if possible) is helpful. Use jackets as best you can for insulation. If the hypothermia progresses, consider your body next to the victim to gain some external heat.

To preserve cell phone battery life, get a hand warmer and put it next to your phone.

As Doug has previously mentioned, staying in contact with 911 is very important, especially if the partners do not know what to do, or panic. First hand experience tells me that if you party does not know what to do or what not to do, you lose precious time and may inflict more injury.

911 can guide the unprepared in terms of first responder medical activities, most importantly to determine body vitals and communicate them on a regular basis to the 911 medical crew. This, is as important in the first several minutes while the rescue crew, sometimes hours away are getting there. Don't underestimate that you or your untrained (or even trained) crew may panic. Most of us are not called upon to use these skills very often. We don't get the experience of a professional EMT responder. 911 will provide a competent resource which guides you through the response.

A through-hiker came along and he only had Boy Scout training, but he had something more important - A large sheet of instructions about what to do in many injury cases, including head injuries. Especially important when we couldn't get through to 911 for about an hour.

I carry a set of 2 way GMRS high(er) powered radios with me. If in any case me or someone in my party may separate, it's another way to communicate. You might be surprised at how well they work, even with geographic obstructions.

While electronics may be our knee jerk reaction to calling for help, don't forget that low-tech whistle. Summonsing others nearby to assist can be extremely important if someone must hike out.

In my case, even with 30 responders at hand, enough time had passed that the responder team was level headed but freaking out because they knew there was a very good chance I was gonna expire. So much so that the EMT crew visited me in the ICU the next day. Do not underestimate the gravity of a concussion, no matter how seemingly mild. You need to be seen at the ER regardless. It's quite possible your situation can degrade over time.

I hope this helps someone.
 
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A PLB is more reliable in the BC, but only gives out a one-way general distress message with location and a radio beacon. When it works, a cellphone (or 2-way radio) is preferable because you can have a 2-way conversation with your rescuers.


Happened in 2007--a blowdown jumped out and grabbed my ski resulting in a broken femur, hip, and wrist (all closed). The dialing, yapping, and thinking mechanisms were not damaged... Fortunately 911 worked, but another skier arrived a few minutes after the crash--he would have been able to ski out for help if need be (<2hrs). I had enough junk in my pack to stabilize me on scene until the evac crew arrived. Lots of detail in the following threads: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15911 and http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15891

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?p=346527#post346527

Incredible. Do you hike or do other sports differently now? I sure do. My family made it perfectly clear that I put them at risk as well. Another thread.
 
But it leaves me with one big question. How come your bottom line message is not widely publicized? Afterward, I looked in my manual and read the entire Verizon web site and found nothing about using 911.

Its not really clear that Att blocks Tmobile in all North American markets (causing no service to display even though there is "roaming" available), or that Verizon does the same to anyone else using its technology. Some phones go into a deep slumber when there is no service, waking up sporadically to listen for a tower (you might be in between the sporadic atttempts), others don't.

So what I said has a very low probability of helping but it is not 0.

There are a number of interesting technologies being implemented such as Text-to-911 and reverse-911 based on geo coordinates, where some agency such as the park service, sends a text to all phones in a geographic area about a lost or missing person--like the amber alerts or some of the smart highway trials.
 
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Bottom line:
If you need 911 you might try it even if the phone says no service.

Thank you. That was my thought when I started this thread before technology stuff dominated the thread. Yes this information should be more common.

If it gives hope to a lost or hurt hiker it could make a difference in the their will to survive.
 
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