cross country new technology advice

[hikerfast]

okay kids, I'm trying to get a handle on what is available for cross country skiing options, and perhaps make a decision and purchase.
order of knowledge:
im no expert for starters, but do a bit each year.
in 1984 until recently, you bought skis that extended up to your extended wrist over your head, had 'slipper' like boots that fit into a 3 pin binding that twisted when you tried to make a turn. fast, but not much good for turning. downhill is fun till you crash, unless you are pretty skilled(i dont mind crashing).
few years ago, these became referred to as 'touring' skis.
backcountry skis came out, shorter, wider, slower, metal edges. fine.
last year i bought a pair, got some great boots with the new bindings(not 3 pin), and when i turn my feet, the skis turn. what a change. very nice. i liked the new bindings so much i put them on my old 'now called touring skis' and they turn much better also.
also a few years ago, 'telemark'' skis come out, loose heel, pretty much look like downhill. new skis boots and bindings required(i think).
I saw some lady skiing on cardigan sunday with these 'randonet' bindings. $425 at ems. they allow you to freeheel for touring along, clip the heel down for downhill, and elevate the back or your boot about 5 inches for climbing, im assuming with the assistance of skins. sounds pretty nice. i dont know if you need to buy new skis, boots, or put them on existing skis and use the boots you already have.
then at ems yesterday, the guy shows me these 'alpine trekkers' to consider instead of randonet. he says i can use my downhill skis and boots with them. they are basicly an 'adapter' that work like randonets'. you clip this thing into your downhill bindings, then clip your downhill boots into those. then, like randonet, you can go freeheel for cross country, clip the heel down for when you do a downhill, and elevate the back a few inches for climbing(assuming skins here too). these were like 180 bucks as opposed to 425 for the randonet.
I wondered about opinions and facts on all this?
would using the alpine trekkers with your downhill skis be hideously heavy using your downhill boots? or no big deal? or the price you pay to be able to use your downhill skiis going downhill? how would this be doing a pemi ski thru for example?
how about for climbing wildcat then doing the wildcat trail off the back down to jackson?
what about mixing and matching? am i correct in my assumptions?
do i have to buy new boots and skis for the randonets vs. using existing ones and changing bindings?
any help is appreciated.
man cross country ski equipment used to be so simple!
this specialized stuff sounds like it could be great, or maybe not. ill be curious to learn things.
all info welcome, thanks in advance.
something tells me dave metzky might be the expert here.

 

[DougPaul]

Wowf! Quite a list of questions...

Start by reading Dave.m's pages on Nordic BC skiing:
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/dirtbag.html

There are also quite a few past threads on this BBS which will also help. Search away...

Doug

 

[hikerfast]

well i never heard of randonets or alpine trekkers. i dont think he talks about them on his site. maybe it will be hard getting info

 

[DougPaul]

well i never heard of randonets or alpine trekkers. i dont think he talks about them on his site. maybe it will be hard getting info

Randonee is French for "can't Telemark"...

Actually same as Alpine Touring.
Locked heel binding on descent, released heel and toe hinge for ascent. Not good for telemark turns, kick and glide touring.

Alpine trekker: http://www.bcaccess.com/bca_products/alpine_trekker.php

Tip: just google any term which you do not know...

Doug

 

[David Metsky]

Before you go too far, ask your self what it is you are trying to do. Are you an alpine skier looking to achieve the same kind of black diamond skiing in the backcountry? Are you looking for long tours in the woods? Is your goal to find untracked powder stashes?

The main thing to realise is except for a few places near Mt Washington and by ski areas, backcountry in New England is nothing like downhill skiing. Mostly it is fairly gentle touring with some places you get some nice turns.

Alpine Trekkers will work but they are clunky and alpine ski boots are lousy for climbing and even worse for any type of rolling terrain. They are a stop gap at best. AT gear and Tele gear are both great, with advantages and disadvantages to each. It will mainly depend on what you intend to do with them.

So, where do you want to ski?

-dave-

 

[hikerfast]

i am a moderate alpine skiier, i ski on green and blue trails usually. you didnt mention the randonet's. i wondered what these alpine trekkers and randonets are all about. i have long touring skis that i used for everthing, and i have backcountry skis as of last year. most of my skiiing is regular touring on trails. i wondered if using the randonets or trekkers would allow me to ski up mountains, and back down them, like on the cone of jefferson. i was with someone in 87 who used skins and went up north twin with us, then down. then he also came with us up castellated ridge in march of 87, and then down. he had a ball skiing on the cone. this guy must have been pretty advanced. he was skiing thru the wooods all the way down. I thought about doign things like the wildcat trail to jackson. i like to do things like the pemi ski thru. i dont know if these new things would be practical for that. the randonets looked pretty regular, not much different. the alpine trekkers with the downhill boots and skis seemed like it would be pretty radical change. right now with 2 sets of skis i dont really NEED anything new, but i thought it might be fun if things were going much more in the downhill direction. when i say downhill, i mean going 'downhill' on trails and woods on cross country skis..not a 'downhill' ski area. i wondered if these woudl be way easier to control if i skinned up the fire wardens trail on hale, and then came down it. with the skis i have now, id probably be the wipeout king. not that i dont have a sense of humor about falling. it would be nice not to wear a tree also..

 

[DougPaul]

you didnt mention the randonet's.

The word is randonee (= alpine touring) which I already described.

Your friend in 87 was likely using tele or randonee (AT) gear.

There is a continuum between BC gear (lightweight end) and Tele gear (heavyweight end).

AT gear is essentially downhill gear with a heel release for climbing.

Doug

 

[hikerfast]

if the heel is released, why isnt it good for kick and glide

 

[DougPaul]

if the heel is released, why isnt it good for kick and glide

Because the pivot point is in front of the boot and the boots are generally too rigid. Never used one myself, but I have read that it is rather awkward.

As you presumably know, the piviot point for XC and tele is at the ball of the foot.

Doug

 

[David Metsky]

It's hard to describe the merits and benefits of these types of gear unless you get out there and try some of it. Suffice it to say that not all skis/boots/bindings that allow your heel to lift are equivilent.

Alpine ski boots are still alpine ski boots. They are not made for your foot to flex, and they're not really made to tour. In Alpine Trekker bindings they will pivot in front of your toe, making it feel like you're going up on tiptoe with each step. The bindings lift your boot higher off the ski, making for awkward ski dynamics on the descent. They also don't release as well as alpine or AT bindings.

AT gear has more flex in the boot, making for a more natural feel while touring. Still, it's quite stiff and works much better when skinning up a fairly steady incline rather than touring on rolling terrain. Depending on the boots and bindings you choose, it skis fairly similar to an alpine ski, though the boots are bit lower and more flexible. Again, depending on the type of binding you choose they release fairly similar to alpine gear.

Tele/Heavy Backcountry gear has the most flex in the ball of the boot, allowing for a fairly natural kick and glide. If you have kicker skins or can wax your skis they allow the best touring option on rolling terrain. The range of skis and bindings are very wide, so it's hard to generalize about Tele gear. But you'll have to learn a new type of turn to really take advantage of this gear.

If you are only a green/blue alpine skier you should probably get a bit more experience before heading off into the backcountry. For example, I wouldn't recommend skiing the Jefferson snowfields to someone at your current skill level. Trails like the Wildcat ski tour are a lot of fun, but except for the first 1/4 mile it's really a gentle tour with rolling terrain. It certainly can be done on AT gear (and often is) but you'll be spending a lot of time double poling.

My advice would be to rent gear before buying anything. Many places rent tele gear, I'm not sure who has AT gear for rent. But start there and see whether you like it and what you like before dropping 100's of dollars.

-dave-

 

[el-bagr]

Since one of the Dave.Ms and Doug have given such useful information, I'll keep it short and simple by suggesting another name for Alpine Trekkers: "alpine tour-wreckers". Heavy, fragile, and finicky, they might be the worst of both (telemark/AT) worlds.

 

[hikerfast]

sounds like a lot of good advice. just what i was looking for. I have done a bit of backcountry, but the downhills stuff on trails i usually do a lot of wiping out. ive skiied to zealand in and out several times, skiied a few trails, done some bushwhacking on my skis a bit. auto roads up mountains and down, etc. certainly no expert. seems like the main advantage of these new things is way more control on your downhill, probably at the expense of speed during touring. i noticed going to zealand was a lot slower on the new backcountry skis vs my old longer skinnier skis. but on the way out, i was able to ski down the steep part at the end of zealand road without crashing a bunch of times. on randolee(sp) i imagine its much easier than that. im hearing the alpine trekkers arent that good, you are up higher..etc. dave, what setup do you have? what would you use to ski down the wildcat trail, etc? another question: they have climbing skins on sale for like half price at a local place, 55mm and 75 mm. i should get a pair for my backcountry skis, but not the touring ones id imagine? anything i should know about the size? just make sure they cover the whole ski side to side, and cut off the excess?

 

[skiguy]

Alpine ski boots are still alpine ski boots. They are not made for your foot to flex, and they're not really made to tour. In Alpine Trekker bindings they will pivot in front of your toe, making it feel like you're going up on tiptoe with each step. The bindings lift your boot higher off the ski, making for awkward ski dynamics on the descent. They also don't release as well as alpine or AT bindings.

-dave-

I think if you look at THIS you will see that Alpine trekkers are designed for a very specific situation as is most ski gear. When used for the purpose they are intended for I have found them to be a very effective tool. If you read the description in the above link you will see that they are to be removed from your binding on the decent therefore making the releasable system of your Alpine Binding work the way it was designed to do. In other words The Alpine Trekker is designed for the Climb only.

 

[audrey]

Hikerfast,

I think that AT or heavy tele equipment is overkill unless you are going to climb up a mountain and ski down it. Even the Wildcat trail doesn't need that kind of gear. As Dave said, most of it is rolling terrain and you'll be overburdened.

My setup is good for just about everything I do, except that it's too light for lift-served skiing or places that demand excellent ankle control - I don't usually plan on steep long descents anyway. The Bolton Valley (VT) backcountry trails, including the Bolton-Trapp Trail (part of the Catamount) are quite exciting, and this equipment is perfect for it:

Garmont Excursion boots (Scarpa T3's and T4's are comparable)
Cable bindings (I have Riva Z's - nice and light, but discontinued)
Fischer Rebound skis (there are others with a good sidecut and metal edges).

My skis are waxless 'cause I'm lazy, but I do use iron-on glide wax and always carry rub-on wax. It's a compromise, I know. Learning how to wax would give me better gliding ability and skins would help on long climbs, but I like this simple system.

 

[hikerfast]

yes, simple is nice. what would you guys all use for a pemi ski thru? i have my long touring skis that are fast and used for 20 years, or these shorter backcountry metal edged skis. sounds almost like a wash. the longer skinnier ones woudl be faster, but id plant a few times, the backcountry ones would go less distance with each stride, but easier to turn on the downhill sections. i spose it depends on how much snow there was.
one thing to bear in mind: when i got the skis in 84, i had never heard of 'groomed trails'. i took my skis and headed out for about 6 hours in fitchburg woods and fields, hills and no hills, 'breaking trail' all the way. i was surprised to learn that 'breaking trail' was considered the hard part. it is what i had always done. ignorance is bliss..lol.

 

[Gris]

Short answer from a flatlander (based on hearsay from friends):

1 - Stick w telemark bindings if you are still learning or can already do a drop knee turn (randonee best for long time alpiners going BC)
2 - Consider getting a shorter wider ski (for flotation) if going ungroomed.

Happy Trails & Merry Christmas!

 

[audrey]

Pemi skis

How much downhill is there on a Pemi ski-thru? Not nearly as much as there is flat and straight. If the long ones glide much better, I'd go with those. I'm assuming you want to do it in a day, so some speed is important.

 

[DougPaul]

yes, simple is nice. what would you guys all use for a pemi ski thru?

Short answer from someone who has skied every inch of the Zealand-Pemi traverse route.

I used my 190cm 65/54/60mm Tua Escape metal-edged waxable BC skis mounted with a 3-pin binding and medium weight leather boots. (In good snow conditions.) An appropriate ski for this tour. I have carried skins on it as emergency gear.

This route, if you take Shoal Pond Tr, is about distance, not difficulty or turns.

You will want skins if you take the Threau Falls Tr, S -> N. And I don't think you want to try TFT N->S. Steep. Also route finding difficulty.

See Goodman's guidebook.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

How much downhill is there on a Pemi ski-thru? Not nearly as much as there is flat and straight. If the long ones glide much better, I'd go with those. I'm assuming you want to do it in a day, so some speed is important.

All relatively easy kick-and-glide terrain (Shoal Pond route). Most difficult section is between Zealand summer parking lot and the Zealand Ponds.

Bring BC gear, leave your Tele/AT gear at home.

Doug