Globe story on a winter ski trip from Zealand to the Kanc gone bad
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Quote... "crossing the Presidential Range toward Loon"...now that would be a hike! Yet another poorly written article by a member of our media whom obviously has probably never hiked farther than the mailbox at the end of his driveway. As far as the Leader and his group. I am always amazed at the pain someone will go through before turning back or not at all. Also for not further checking and understanding trail conditions at the time or observing a turn around time. The Leader should have known better. I can only hypothesize but this incident IMO smacks of misdirected group driven behavior.
And one of two huts open in the winter? The hut ranger? Oy. Glad everyone survived, but yikes! Take TFT, not SPT!
Dehydrator
New member
This story is a bit spooky to me since I was practically there that night. That weekend I had a plan of hiking over Zealand, tenting at Guyot and bagging the Bonds and Twins. Getting up the road to the hut was easy that day but past the hut was impenetrable. I struggled through waist deep drifts up Zealand and was totally exhausted when I reached the summit around 3:30. Even though Guyot was only a couple miles more, I didn't thing it was wise to continue and turned around. I stopped in the hut on the way out to let the caretaker know that I was heading down and that if he heard helicopters coming to rescue somebody, it wasn't me they were after. The hut was crowded and I probably saw these guys sitting around the table playing cards. I guess I made a better decision than they did.
Winter in the Whites is seldom "just a walk in the woods" regardless of what the "hut ranger" tells you, and anyone leading a group on a Pemi traverse in February should know better. They were lucky no one died.
summitseeker
New member
Not to sound like an insensitive person, but PHDs don't come with a minor in common sense.
Yes, The White Mountains are not Everest, K2, or Kilimanjaro but they shouldn't be taken lightly. I can't imagine thinking of them as "bigger than hills" or being so brazen as to scoff off the opinion of a surgeon when he tells me that I will be losing some toes to frostbite.
A simple lesson in physics addressing momentum versus inertia and heat convection should have been considered by this professor. IMHO
Glad everyone made it out but seriously...yikes!
Z
Yes, The White Mountains are not Everest, K2, or Kilimanjaro but they shouldn't be taken lightly. I can't imagine thinking of them as "bigger than hills" or being so brazen as to scoff off the opinion of a surgeon when he tells me that I will be losing some toes to frostbite.
A simple lesson in physics addressing momentum versus inertia and heat convection should have been considered by this professor. IMHO
Glad everyone made it out but seriously...yikes!
Z
The added twist of...err..."Dehydrator's" story is that the caretaker knew in no uncertain terms of the conditions outside. Whether he or she passed them on to that group becomes an interesting question. If the caretaker didn't relay that information in no uncertain terms, why not? If he or she and the group ignored it, that takes on additional significance.
Brian
DougPaul
Well-known member
I did the same traverse two weeks later and didn't find the trail finding difficulties described in the article. It is a long Backcountry route which should be carefully researched before going. (For instance, it is described in Goodman's guidebook.) Once one turns onto the Shoal Pond Trail, escape routes are limited. Blue markers?--I don't recall seeing many*. Given that it is a long backcountry route with limited escape routes, one should rely on one's ability to handle the conditions as found rather than rely on trail condition reports** and be able to self-rescue or bivy if necessary. (Snow conditions can change rapidly.) One should also be ready to turn back or take an escape route.
* Blazes are depreciated in formal Wilderness. One needs to learn to navigate without them.
** IMO, there is nothing wrong with getting the trail condition reports. One simply shouldn't rely on them...
I have skied Thoreau Falls Tr twice and SPT three times. IMO, snow conditions make or break this trip--it is a long tour and efficiency is king. If snow conditions aren't good enough, then turn around.
Re the article:
Experience elsewhere is fine, but may not tell one about local conditions and hazards...
Doug
* Blazes are depreciated in formal Wilderness. One needs to learn to navigate without them.
** IMO, there is nothing wrong with getting the trail condition reports. One simply shouldn't rely on them...
I have skied Thoreau Falls Tr twice and SPT three times. IMO, snow conditions make or break this trip--it is a long tour and efficiency is king. If snow conditions aren't good enough, then turn around.
Re the article:
Experience elsewhere is fine, but may not tell one about local conditions and hazards...
Doug
Dehydrator
New member
I didn't attempt the same route that the unfortunate group in the article did. I tried to go over the ridge and they went around it. I have never hiked in skis but I would think that 17 miles over flat terrain would be doable even over unbroken trail. I can't imagine why the caretaker would be alarmed by their plans.
DougPaul
Well-known member
Clearly the report was written by someone who didn't know much about skiing a Pemi traverse. I too had to read through it as best I could.
What often happens is that a fast hiker/skier goes ahead and gets out of contact with the slowest hiker/skier. Decisions get made without consulting or regard to the the slow traveler. (The slowpoke may still be struggling to catch up and thus not even present when the decisions are made...) This is a failure of the speed daemons... (I'm often slow and have "been there, done that"--in some cases I've been left behind for hours. In such cases I have declared that I've been abandoned and switched to solo mode. (IE slow down and turn back if need be.))
But, in general, I agree that it could have been a failure of the group to function as a group or group driven behavior.
The N-S Pemi traverse via Shoal Pond Tr is also a (possibly deceptively) committing route: the point where it appears to be better to continue rather than turn back isn't that far down the Shoal Pond Tr, particularly if you start from Rte 302.
Doug
DougPaul
Well-known member
Having skied the TFT twice and the SPT three times I disagree--IMO they are both worth skiing. SPT has 4 major stream crossings, no extended steeps, and potentially more difficult navigation. The TFT is a little shorter, has no major stream crossings, and is easier to navigate but has an extended steep and several medium steeps.
Snow conditions could easily dictate one's choice, but one doesn't get much prior info about the other route unless one explores both before deciding.
Both routes have been made harder by the removal of the Pemi bridge...
Doug
DougPaul
Well-known member
This isn't being brazen. The history of frostbite treatment is loaded with instances of surgeons eager to cut off more than necessary. The best tissue retention occurs when one lets the body decide which may take two to six months. The tissue in question may be extremely fragile and infection prone during much of this waiting period.
From "Hypothermia Frostbite and Other Cold Injuries", by Gordon G. Giesbrecht PhD and James A. Wilkerson MD, second edition, 2006, pg 83:
Many physicians who care for patients with frostbite recount horror stories about individuals who have avoided major hand or foot amputations only because they refused to allow surgeons to perform them, and subsequently have lost only fingers or toes--or the tips of those digits. Surgical amputation of frostbitten digits or extremities is almost never necessary until six weeks or more after then injury. Only then is the extent of tissue death clearly demarcated. "Frozen in January--amputate in July" is a time proven adage.
See also: "Medicine for Mountaineering", edited by James A Wilkerson MD, Ernest E Moore MD, and Ken Zafren MD.
Doug
summitseeker
New member
Hi Doug,
I know you are a scientist and I respect your opinion and factual wealth of knowledge.
I was merely saying that unless someone is well versed in the area of frostbite it is worth listening to the advice of a medical professional. This was not a comment on how the patient should have allowed the surgeon to remove digits without a second practitioner's opinion.
I merely thought that this person seemed overly confident in their own appraisal of the situation and ultimately in the ill fated hike in which he lead others into.
That is all.
Z
DougPaul
Well-known member
A number of us on this website have done it. There are enough terrain features and stream crossings to deal with on the SPT and Wilderness Trails that it is harder than just 17 mi of flat terrain, but it is still very doable by a skier with moderate BC skiing skills. One must be efficient and IMO the most important factor is the snow conditions.
Lots of people ski the Pemi traverse (many without a stopover at the hut)--it really isn't that big a deal for adequately skilled and equipped skiers in good snow conditions. However it is still a long and committing route and one can still get into trouble...
Doug
Mike P.
Well-known member
I'll defer to the skiers here but spotting a car at Lincoln Woods in case you decide to go out that way over going back out Zealand to 302? (Not sure I read they did that but based on late start and making it to the hut without a major issue, assumed they did not go in by Ethan Pond or over the Willey Range)
In and out on Zealand Road is seven miles or so the other is much longer and even if relatively flat, is much harder than going back on Zealand Road. Love to know if he sold the traverse to the group as being about the same (or a little harder).
Do we know his experience on the trails they took? Personally I like doing some scouting of my planned route when I'm taking people who are looking at me as a leader. (I've hiked with a few here & said, I was just the trip planner, I don't lead Dave M. anywhere but with kids, I need to know the area, conditions, etc.)
Reminds me of the Dahl rescue years ago. Think he had Kilimanjaro on his resume also. If your guided, the guides make the decisions, that's what you pay them for. Sounds impressive in an article but walking when you're told and stopping when you're told in a more exotic place than NH doesn't necessarily give you the ability to make good decisions. If your resume is full of guided trips, (Was Blanc a guided trip too? Being able to go to great locations following guides directions, means you can afford to travel well, not make wilderness decisions.), what have you learned about taking others with less skills than you and making group decisions?
Years ago I went with the EMS Climbing school on a trip that was suppose to go up Washington. (old avalanche scale) The days Avy conditions were Extreme and it was below zero with winds excess of 60 MPH. They opted to take us up Valley Way, we got to the hut. What did I learn? From them, I don't play in Avalanche terrain when the scale is at the highest level. (We did not dig test pits, we read the report) Biggest lesson I learned was in layering. I tried going uphill with four layers and a pack stuffed with even more clothing. Also that I can't have enough gloves or mittens, sweating like a pig with freezing fingers is no fun!
In and out on Zealand Road is seven miles or so the other is much longer and even if relatively flat, is much harder than going back on Zealand Road. Love to know if he sold the traverse to the group as being about the same (or a little harder).
Do we know his experience on the trails they took? Personally I like doing some scouting of my planned route when I'm taking people who are looking at me as a leader. (I've hiked with a few here & said, I was just the trip planner, I don't lead Dave M. anywhere but with kids, I need to know the area, conditions, etc.)
Reminds me of the Dahl rescue years ago. Think he had Kilimanjaro on his resume also. If your guided, the guides make the decisions, that's what you pay them for. Sounds impressive in an article but walking when you're told and stopping when you're told in a more exotic place than NH doesn't necessarily give you the ability to make good decisions. If your resume is full of guided trips, (Was Blanc a guided trip too? Being able to go to great locations following guides directions, means you can afford to travel well, not make wilderness decisions.), what have you learned about taking others with less skills than you and making group decisions?
Years ago I went with the EMS Climbing school on a trip that was suppose to go up Washington. (old avalanche scale) The days Avy conditions were Extreme and it was below zero with winds excess of 60 MPH. They opted to take us up Valley Way, we got to the hut. What did I learn? From them, I don't play in Avalanche terrain when the scale is at the highest level. (We did not dig test pits, we read the report) Biggest lesson I learned was in layering. I tried going uphill with four layers and a pack stuffed with even more clothing. Also that I can't have enough gloves or mittens, sweating like a pig with freezing fingers is no fun!
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DougPaul
Well-known member
Hi Z,
My guess is that he knew the history of surgeons eagerly cutting too much too soon (it is well known in the winter mountaineering community) and the surgeon appeared to be ignorant and arrogant to him. IMO, the surgeon wasn't acting very professionally...
Treatment of frostbite was taught to me at winter school and I still have the reference: "FROSTBITE What it is/How to prevent it/Emergency Treatment" by Bradford Washburn which includes (pg19):
Never cut off any tissue. Let nature effect its own removal. It is virtually impossible, even for an expert and after weeks of treatment, to determine the depth of frostbite injury from examination of the condition at the surface. Even minor surgery will expose underlying layers of damaged tissue and greatly increase the danger of infection to them. Seriously injured tissue often survives almost miraculously, if not disturbed and kept scrupulously clean and free of infection and irritation.
I suspect that most winter schools also teach prevention and treatment of frostbite.IMO prevention and treatment of frostbite are required skills for winter BC travelers. The skier in question, while he may have made some mistakes, had enough experience that he probably knew at least basic treatment of frostbite.
BTW, both of the references in my prior post are available at hiking stores such as REI.
Doug
DougPaul
Well-known member
My guess is that the N-S traverse was their goal and spotting a car at LW was just part of their preparation. Depending on their decisions at the hut and on the trail they had the options of going back to 302 or continuing on to LW.
Doug
Mike P.
Well-known member
I'd agree with you that the traverse was the goal but the article amongst it's other flaws seemed to make the traverse sound like a just in case conditions were good. Thinking their source may have told them that & that their source was one of the leaders and/or the members of the group.
As a peakbagger, I always think of the traverse as going over the Bonds. Do the TFT and SPT stay broken out? I suspect the routes to the 4K peaks are broken out more during the winter.
As a peakbagger, I always think of the traverse as going over the Bonds. Do the TFT and SPT stay broken out? I suspect the routes to the 4K peaks are broken out more during the winter.
Glad I could count on your affrimation on this one Doug and especially the expanded rhetoric. The bottom line of the Globe's article says it all.
DougPaul
Well-known member
IMO, the spotted car says that they were hoping for the full traverse. But it appears that they were unsure of whether they could make it. However, Mazur seems to have gotten the impression from the hutkeeper that he route would be easy...
I suspect that both Zealand Tr, Ethan Pond Tr, and the first mile of SPT (ie as far as the viewpoint over the pond) get broken out pretty quickly. The TFT, the Wilderness Tr beyond the Wilderness boundary (and particularly beyond the TFT junction), and the rest of the SPT probably don't get broken out nearly as quickly. In 2003 and 2011, I/we had to break out large portions of the TFT, SPT, and Wilderness Tr. (Both trips did a clockwise lollipop out of Lincoln woods so we did both the TFT and SPT.) Most (maybe all) of the 2014 (SPT) traverse was broken.
Hikers head for the peaks pretty much regardless of snow conditions, but skiers are more inclined to wait for good conditions.
Doug
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