have you ever hiked to a closed hut expecting it to be open?

[SLB]

I've walked by a few AMC Huts and wished they were closed - but that's different.

Jimi Hendrix - Red House Lyrics

There's a Red House over yonder, That's where my baby stays
There's a Red House over yonder, That's where my baby stays

Well, I ain't been home to see my baby, in ninety nine and one half days.
'Bout time I see her, Wait a minute something's wrong here
The key won't unlock the door.

Wait a minute something's wrong baby, Lord, have mercy, this key won't unlock this door,
something's goin' on here. I have a bad bad feeling that my baby don't live here no more.

That's all right, I still got my guitar, Look out now . . .

I might as well go on back down, go back 'cross yonder over the hill
I might as well go back over yonder, way back over yonder 'cross the hill,
(That's where I came from.)

'Cause if my baby don't love me no more,
I know her sister will!

 

[spencer]

So, SLB, are you saying who needs the AMC b/c the RMC will put out?

I love that song...

spencer

 

[dug]

Since I never have camped in a hut or shelter, I guess the answer would be 'no'.

Ask me the same question about whethere I found an access road closed or a trail temporarily closed or moved, then you might get a 'yes'.

 

[the starchild]

Since no one said that, you have built up a strawman and now are attempting to knock it down.

If you wish to assail people on this site for their opinions, don't. That's not what this site is here for. You can discuss things calmly and rationally and still disagree.

-dave-

sorry dave, i must respectfully disagree. i think people did say that. look below the dotted line at the end of this post. i copied and pasted a bunch of comments that i took as being excuses for what happened. go ahead and pick them apart if you must, but please understand the general feeling i got from them was that the three people just had bad luck, or it was the weather's fault or they don't have internet access. i was/am more irritated that some people were unwilling to accept the hikers got themselves into trouble for not doing basic research. not sure why, but it really bugs the heck out of me.

If I was wrong to assume the comments below were excuses or i took them the wrong way, i really truly apologize. my bad. seriously.

as for the assail comment, it pissed me off and i wanted to reuse it in context. 20/20 hindsight, i should have let it be because it wasn't the right word. i didn't want to assail anyone. i wanted to voice my opinion which is that it was wrong to try to blame the need of a rescue on anything except the hikers and their bad decisions. my apologies to all for that.

anywho, FWIW, i am admittedly in a foul mood. i returned yesterday from my first trip out of america (spent a loong weekend in beautiful quebec city) to find out 16, yes sixteen people, were shot in my city. i live in the ghetto, lived here most of my life and keep hoping my city, which has sooo much positive things to offer will get its shit together. i am pretty bummed out.

so again, if i took any of the below the wrong way, i apologize. otherwise, i do think that the three people made several really bad mistakes and i still feel that it is not right to blame the weather, lack of signs or lack of viewing VFTT etc!


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is there any signage at a hut that is plainly visible (not the brouchures or online) that would lead me to think the hut is not always open?

Is there any signage at the USFS information centers or Lincoln Woods that might lead me to believe the huts are not open all year?

While many people use this bbs & others for information, I have to believe that number is only a small fraction of people who hike, especially from May 1st through October 31st. More people, especially newer hikers likely get there info (if they get any at all) from a map & from USFS road side centers & maybe at HC & PNVC.

If I was a new hiker & this July while day hiking Mt. Madison (why I don't know, my girlfriend's name is Madison or I want a job on Madison Ave.) I came across the hut. I never knew they existed. I wnt in used the bathroom where I saw they had bunks, holy mad cow, you mean I could sleep here, great. I'm so exicted I run up & down Madison & head on home. Come Spring next year I start thinking about hiking, I'm going to start my hiking season earlier, say Mother's Day or May 22nd, I'll go & hike Madison again & stay the night this time. I'll bring my friend Jack, he'd love it too.

If I see a hut in July, why would I think they are closed or that I need to call someone for a reservation? No phones at the hut, who would I call.

Sometimes I really miss the arrogance and ignorance of youth.

Those posters who've been climbing for many years know how easy it is, even for highly experienced people, to have things turn sour.

It's been my experience that the general hiking public is NOT well-informed on which NH huts are open at any point in time and their status (fully open, caretaker only, etc), the difference between AMC and RMC huts, etc.

I think most of us forget what it is like to be a non-hiker... full of wrong information and perceived fitness

 

[David Metsky]

sorry dave, i must respectfully disagree. i think people did say that. look below the dotted line at the end of this post. i copied and pasted a bunch of comments that i took as being excuses for what happened. go ahead and pick them apart if you must, but please understand the general feeling i got from them was that the three people just had bad luck, or it was the weather's fault or they don't have internet access. i was/am more irritated that some people were unwilling to accept the hikers got themselves into trouble for not doing basic research. not sure why, but it really bugs the heck out of me.

Fair enough. I interpret those statements differently, but understand your read on them as well. My reading is that people do go into the woods all the time with only the vaguest idea of the lay of the land, no maps, no idea about the huts, shelters, weather, etc. It's a bad thing, they didn't plan, but it has always happened, and will continue to happen. We can hope that people educate themselves more before heading into the woods, but we must act as if they don't, because that is the reality that S&R faces.

No one thinks the current situation is good, but before we can affect change we need to understand what causes people to act like this. Just saying they were idiots (I'm sure they'd agree) doesn't get us any closer to fixing the problem. I think everyone here wants the same thing, we just approaching it from different sides.

as for the assail comment, it pissed me off and i wanted to reuse it in context. 20/20 hindsight, i should have let it be because it wasn't the right word.

No problem. I'm just trying to keep the debate civil here with a preemptive strike. Everyone is cool.

-dave-

 

[NumNum]

I Never assume, i will always bring a tent

 

[Mike P.]

At least for my comments they weren't excuses, but questions. If you climb, Mt. Washington in the winter, should you be able to read English? It's a trick question since the signage was changed after a winter fatality. Taking comments out of context is never an accurate way of making your point.

My first few hikes were done with a Road Atlas for a map & hoping there would be a trail sign at the parking lot.

I was one of the earlier people here & on the AMC board but that was after I started hiking not before. All those years of hunting in the winter & we never had a map of Bolton, how did we survive, how did we find our way home? How did I get back from Mansfield the first time without a topo map & the ability to read it had I had one?

The majority of casual hikers, which most people are, don't frequent hiking bbs', since we keep bringing up the sneaker & jeans, crowd, they obviously are not gear junkies, maybe they have not spent much (any) time in EMS.

Usually before you invest (by now thousands) dollars into a new hobby (read passion for you guys & girls) most people try it out first before spending huge dollars. (that's why i don;t have a barn full of power tools like my brother-in-law & another one filled with cars & farm equipment to work on + building the barns - I own many hiker boots & enough fleece to keep many people warm)

Why would you assume new hikers would be all over hiking bulletin boards & buying guidebooks. BTW, I don't look at a cookbook before I cook either, somehow I got to 210 pounds???

How about we talk about your latest trip instead???

 

[grouseking]

I voted yes, but it wasn't a big deal at all. It was the first day of fall in 2003, we hiked Washington. I was hoping to fill up my water at Lake of the Clouds but it had already closed. I figured it would be opened for at least that weekend since temps were in the mid 60s on the summit, but I thought wrong. No biggie though, I filled up on the summit. My first summit of Washington was as benign as it could be.

grouseking

 

[Chip]

I voted "Yes" also, to present a point. I've hiked towards and to Lake of the Clouds in winter conditions assuming the Refuge Room would be open, not that I planned on staying there (as too many have) but I did have it in mind that we could warm-up/dry-out there.
Maybe the rescued hikers thought there was a Refuge Room at that hut.

 

[RoySwkr]

Suppose it had been open, in summer it is not unusual for it to be full and you would either be sent away if early or made to sleep on the floor.

And I wonder if they had any idea how much it cost to stay although they probably had credit cards.

Even city people (perhaps even more so than country people) know that places/events can be full or excessively expensive and should plan accordingly.

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At one time AMC huts had a refuge room left open all winter for free, Miriam Underhill climbed Bonds from Galehead Hut (but apparently not Galehead which wasn't on the list then). I suppose we can all understand why that wouldn't work any more.

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People old enough to remember when a rescuer died looking for **IDIOTS** who didn't know the hut wasn't open may be unduly negative about the present bunch. In the previous story, some ice climbers went up Huntington but got lost on the descent and wound up in the Great Gulf. When they reached the junction of Great Gulf Trail and Madison Gulf Trail, the distance to Madison Hut was shorter than to Rte. 16 so they headed to the hut. They didn't make it and spent 2 nights in the Great Gulf and eventually lost some extremities, meanwhile a searcher died in an avalanche. But they saved the weight of a contour map.

 

[the starchild]

At least for my comments they weren't excuses, but questions. If you climb, Mt. Washington in the winter, should you be able to read English? It's a trick question since the signage was changed after a winter fatality. Taking comments out of context is never an accurate way of making your point...

How about we talk about your latest trip instead???

mike, bonjour!

i didn't spend a lot of time rereading the posts when i tried to show metsky people were making excuses, i quickly cut and pasted. rereading your posts it sounds like you are saying its not obvious that some huts close for the winter season and there is no reason not to assume they are not always open. if not, sorry dude, i owe you a spring roll!

should you be able to read english to climb mt. washington? i'm not sure exactly what happened and what you are referencing, but yeah, it'd be a whole lot safer if you did. On my latest trip since you asked I visited montmorency falls just north of quebec and up the road there was another set of falls in Canyon Ste-Anne. On the flyer there is a canyoneering tour with harnesses, helmets and cables. Seemed kinda cheesey from the photo, but more fun than boardwalks and suspension bridges. I wasn't sure about doing it because i don't speak French and was worried about the instructions or a possible bad situation; what if something went wrong and i had to follow directions to save my life

i am now commiting myself to watching dvd's of the simpsons in french with english subtitles and will return to quebec!

ps. certainly not backcountry, but there are kilometers and kilometers of amazing rails to trails there along the shore of the river under the cliffs with amazing views of the city. there are even little parks along the way with water fountains for thirsty people!

 

[dug]

Maybe the rescued hikers thought there was a Refuge Room at that hut.

That is an excellent point!

 

[David Metsky]

should you be able to read english to climb mt. washington? i'm not sure exactly what happened and what you are referencing, but yeah, it'd be a whole lot safer if you did.

This is in reference to a party of 4 from Quebec who were caught in an avalanche on the summer Lions Head route after being warned (in English) by the rangers that it was closed and had high avy danger. All the signage was in English, and it's possible that it contributed to the accident. This happened in 1996, I think?

As a result, the signage in French as been added.

-dave-

 

[the starchild]

merci!





.

 

[Raymond]

‘‘It is not enough to succeed; others must fail.’’
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX—Gore Vidal

 

[paul ron]

As someone mentioned, most people here are very experianced hikers and do detailed planning prior to their trip.

Many inexperianced hikers just don't know where to find the vital information we take for granted. As a result these people often run into unexpected problems such as closed huts, lack of proper equipment, or don't find what an outdated book referenced such as lean-tos that have been removed years ago or trails that have been moved recently.

 

[jade]

I read somewhere that 'to err is human'...I read here that to 'err is to be an idiot'.....my perception about the feedback offered by some is not that they offered 'excuses', but plausible possibilities of what lead the three hikers to require rescuing. Inexperience and lack of knowledge are what I see as the mitigating factors.

I think Raymond's quote sums it up quite nicely...and sadly..

...Jade

 

[forestgnome]

Bravely risking a flamin'....

I think that the FS could do a better job at posting current info at trailhead kiosks. Newbies may not seek out websites and guidebooks as they should, but the kiosks are well-read. A single-page, dated notice about the hut being closed, in bright red letters, just might save an incident.

I would not consider this coddling.

BTW, when the huts are open I avoid them, or hike past them really fast!

 

[dug]

Bravely risking a flamin'....

I think that the FS could do a better job at posting current info at trailhead kiosks. Newbies may not seek out websites and guidebooks as they should, but the kiosks are well-read. A single-page, dated notice about the hut being closed, in bright red letters, just might save an incident.

I would not consider this coddling.

BTW, when the huts are open I avoid them, or hike past them really fast!

"I agree!" he said (ducking to avoid the arrows).

 

[David Metsky]

Those signs do exist in various places. I know there is one at OBP for Greenleaf, Pinkham for Lakes, and Appalachia for Madison. I think there's one in Crawford for Mizpah. Not sure about Galehead. Carter, Zealand, and Lonesome are now open yearround, but obviously reservations are expected.

You'd have to cover all the trailheads to get complete certainty, and I'm sure people will still walk right by them. It's a good solution, and one that is already partially implemented, but not a complete solution.

-dave-