Hikers on Lafayette
- Thread starter bill bowden
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JohnL
New member
Good point by Mark. Though be aware that some storms come out of the southwest, which is at your back if you're heading north on the Franconia Ridge. This photo shows a storm that chased me from the ridge. So keep an eye on your back no matter which direction you are heading.
JohnL
JohnL
Mark Driscoll
New member
John,
Nice photo. Shows what can be behind you.
Mark
Nice photo. Shows what can be behind you.
Mark
Peter Miller
New member
Response to a Few Above Posts
To express the outlooks on these message boards that I sometimes do is to be perceived as "critical", "Monday morning quarterback", etc. I call it prudence, forethought, common sense. If that makes me a maverick, fine.
Perhaps the Coxes were too overwhelmed by circumstance to tap into information in their memory banks that would have steered them down the Skookumchuck - topography as seen from high viewpoints or even roadways, info gleaned from having leafed through the AMC guide or its maps, for example. Whatever happened to the notion of researching ALL the trails in the general vicinity before setting out, committing maps and trail descriptions to memory? There are many circumstances that can cause or require departure from itinerary besides wind - fire, flood, etc. Whatever happened to the idea of mentally rehearsing unexpected scenarios and one's response to them? Aren't there times you need that automatic pilot to kick in?
Fish & Game's decision not to charge for rescue is to be expected. Considering the magnitude of Cox's losses, a fine would be cruel. Had both he and his spouse survived relatively intact, I do believe they would have been billed for rescue.
One wishes that contemporary hikers shared pre-white Native American perspectives on nature and mountains. To Natives, mountains were alive, they possessed personality. They "spoke" through the wind, the brooks, the birds, the insects. Each return to a familiar mountain was an opportunity to renew the dialogue and deepen the relationship. Mountains were best visited alone, spiritually. If approached with reverence and respect, they might eventually reveal their secrets, their mysteries. If approached with disregard, they might choose to remind man of his insignificance. To view mountains as "things" to be conquered, collected, or checked off on a piece of paper is White Man foolishness.
The old Natives would have woven the deaths of Holmes, Jaytrek, and Cox into their teaching legends. Where are today's storytellers, where are those with the capacity to hear? Instead, we have bulletin boards, and this is called progress.
To express the outlooks on these message boards that I sometimes do is to be perceived as "critical", "Monday morning quarterback", etc. I call it prudence, forethought, common sense. If that makes me a maverick, fine.
Perhaps the Coxes were too overwhelmed by circumstance to tap into information in their memory banks that would have steered them down the Skookumchuck - topography as seen from high viewpoints or even roadways, info gleaned from having leafed through the AMC guide or its maps, for example. Whatever happened to the notion of researching ALL the trails in the general vicinity before setting out, committing maps and trail descriptions to memory? There are many circumstances that can cause or require departure from itinerary besides wind - fire, flood, etc. Whatever happened to the idea of mentally rehearsing unexpected scenarios and one's response to them? Aren't there times you need that automatic pilot to kick in?
Fish & Game's decision not to charge for rescue is to be expected. Considering the magnitude of Cox's losses, a fine would be cruel. Had both he and his spouse survived relatively intact, I do believe they would have been billed for rescue.
One wishes that contemporary hikers shared pre-white Native American perspectives on nature and mountains. To Natives, mountains were alive, they possessed personality. They "spoke" through the wind, the brooks, the birds, the insects. Each return to a familiar mountain was an opportunity to renew the dialogue and deepen the relationship. Mountains were best visited alone, spiritually. If approached with reverence and respect, they might eventually reveal their secrets, their mysteries. If approached with disregard, they might choose to remind man of his insignificance. To view mountains as "things" to be conquered, collected, or checked off on a piece of paper is White Man foolishness.
The old Natives would have woven the deaths of Holmes, Jaytrek, and Cox into their teaching legends. Where are today's storytellers, where are those with the capacity to hear? Instead, we have bulletin boards, and this is called progress.
JackH
New member
Layfayette hikers
I am a relative novice to winter climbing and have found these posts enlightening. I was trying for Lincoln the Monday the Coxes were up there and I turned back because of the wind on Little Haystack. The sad news was an awakening for me. Although I consider myself to be obsessive about bringing extra gear and planning my trips, my experience that day; and these posts, have taught me that, sometimes, no level of preparation is adequate. This sport requires such diligence on so many levels as to make it both the draw and the danger of the sport.
I am a relative novice to winter climbing and have found these posts enlightening. I was trying for Lincoln the Monday the Coxes were up there and I turned back because of the wind on Little Haystack. The sad news was an awakening for me. Although I consider myself to be obsessive about bringing extra gear and planning my trips, my experience that day; and these posts, have taught me that, sometimes, no level of preparation is adequate. This sport requires such diligence on so many levels as to make it both the draw and the danger of the sport.
ChrisB
Well-known member
Map and Compass?
In all the posts, newspaper articles and press coverage of this sad incident, I do not recall anyone mentioning whether or not the Cox party was equipped with a map and compass.
In his TV interview Mr.Cox says they took a wrong turn, but he never mentions having a compass or a map.
Does anyone know if they carried these two essentials?
cb
In all the posts, newspaper articles and press coverage of this sad incident, I do not recall anyone mentioning whether or not the Cox party was equipped with a map and compass.
In his TV interview Mr.Cox says they took a wrong turn, but he never mentions having a compass or a map.
Does anyone know if they carried these two essentials?
cb
CaptCaper
Member
Re: Map and Compass?
Trouble is, if there was white out conditions like they said then there wouldn't be any reference points to use.
Also trying also to hold a map and read it in high winds would have been a challange.
ChrisB said:
Trouble is, if there was white out conditions like they said then there wouldn't be any reference points to use.
Also trying also to hold a map and read it in high winds would have been a challange.
Jack Waldron
New member
Whether they had a map and compass is very relevant. I haven't seen any public information stating whether they did carry map and compass.
When they were disoriented on the summit searching for the Greenleaf trail, a compass reading would have told them pretty quickly that the cairns they were following were leading them north not west toward Greenleaf. Under the prevailing conditions it may have taken them 45-60 minutes or longer to reach the Skookumchuck junction and realize they were on the wrong trail and apparently lost.
Once they had retreated to the snowcave a map and headlamp should have allowed them to identify the junction they had found as the Skookumchuck junction. Knowing their location, they could plan their next move intelligently.
There is no evidence they used a compass but they may have used a map in the snowcave. We just don't know.
When they were disoriented on the summit searching for the Greenleaf trail, a compass reading would have told them pretty quickly that the cairns they were following were leading them north not west toward Greenleaf. Under the prevailing conditions it may have taken them 45-60 minutes or longer to reach the Skookumchuck junction and realize they were on the wrong trail and apparently lost.
Once they had retreated to the snowcave a map and headlamp should have allowed them to identify the junction they had found as the Skookumchuck junction. Knowing their location, they could plan their next move intelligently.
There is no evidence they used a compass but they may have used a map in the snowcave. We just don't know.
afka_bob
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Re: Response to a Few Above Posts
A certain amount of, uh, "White Man" (and other) non-foolishness is practiced by most hikers I know and see on the trails. Certainly, things can happen that can't be prepared for, but all of these cases mentioned involved taking substantial risks and not taking certain substantial precautions and cautions.
Don't hike alone. Take enough clothes and food to stay warm overnight, even on a day hike. Bring at least one sleeping bag in the group. Leave an itinerary. Map, compass for each person. Talk about bail-out routes ahead of time and modify as needed enroute. Don't depend on cell phones.
As far as legends go, I'm legendary among my group for being the first to say "let's go home."
I don't mean to speak harshly of any of these victims -- I wasn't there (though I have been in many of these same places in many seasons and conditions) -- but to just say, hey, it happens could cost more lives someday.
Which "White Man"?Peter Miller said:
Well, this is a sort of learning process to those who would, uh, hear, I think. And up-to-the-minute weather reports are kinda nice -- might even have saved some lives. I'd call that progress. Gore-Tex, too. And Polar Fleece.
A certain amount of, uh, "White Man" (and other) non-foolishness is practiced by most hikers I know and see on the trails. Certainly, things can happen that can't be prepared for, but all of these cases mentioned involved taking substantial risks and not taking certain substantial precautions and cautions.
Don't hike alone. Take enough clothes and food to stay warm overnight, even on a day hike. Bring at least one sleeping bag in the group. Leave an itinerary. Map, compass for each person. Talk about bail-out routes ahead of time and modify as needed enroute. Don't depend on cell phones.
As far as legends go, I'm legendary among my group for being the first to say "let's go home."
I don't mean to speak harshly of any of these victims -- I wasn't there (though I have been in many of these same places in many seasons and conditions) -- but to just say, hey, it happens could cost more lives someday.
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ChrisB
Well-known member
Liability Issues
I was thinking of the map and compass issue in terms of liability.
I believe other parties who failed to carry these items and subsequently got lost have been tagged for rescue costs.
I know the Cox party did not have to pay for the cost of rescue, so one would assume that they carried these essentials, yet no mention is ever made of them.
cb
I was thinking of the map and compass issue in terms of liability.
I believe other parties who failed to carry these items and subsequently got lost have been tagged for rescue costs.
I know the Cox party did not have to pay for the cost of rescue, so one would assume that they carried these essentials, yet no mention is ever made of them.
cb
Re: Re: Response to a Few Above Posts
What? You don't like lightening?
Cool to "see" you!!
I've been reflecting a lot on this, for obvious reasons. I've been thinking particularly about the time in '99 when you and I ran the Lafayette ridge on a sunny Feb day with Salzer. I've also been thinking about the time when Jimmie and I pressed on to the summit of Adams in poor conditions and another time when maohai, Laurie and I summited Adam in white out conditions. I've also been thinking about bivy gear for xc skiing trips (or the lack there of).
While I can look at some of the things that we did correctly in all of these settings, I can find things that give me real pause in all of them. When we ran the ridge with Salzer, his boots weren't really up to the task and we only had bivy gear for 1 injured person. While I feel like I know the north slopes of Adams like my backyard, I wonder if familiarity has bred contempt?
I still struggle with some basic questions that I've not been able to answer in the midst of all this discussion.
* When do you decide to turn around and not proceed up?
* How much bivy gear is enough? How much is too much?
* How should you respond when hypothermic and exposed?
afka_bob said:
What? You don't like lightening?
Cool to "see" you!!
I've been reflecting a lot on this, for obvious reasons. I've been thinking particularly about the time in '99 when you and I ran the Lafayette ridge on a sunny Feb day with Salzer. I've also been thinking about the time when Jimmie and I pressed on to the summit of Adams in poor conditions and another time when maohai, Laurie and I summited Adam in white out conditions. I've also been thinking about bivy gear for xc skiing trips (or the lack there of).
While I can look at some of the things that we did correctly in all of these settings, I can find things that give me real pause in all of them. When we ran the ridge with Salzer, his boots weren't really up to the task and we only had bivy gear for 1 injured person. While I feel like I know the north slopes of Adams like my backyard, I wonder if familiarity has bred contempt?
I still struggle with some basic questions that I've not been able to answer in the midst of all this discussion.
* When do you decide to turn around and not proceed up?
* How much bivy gear is enough? How much is too much?
* How should you respond when hypothermic and exposed?
CaptCaper
Member
We probably won't get an all for one answer on any of those three points. It must be that every hike and person involved has a different set of circumstances.
Everyone has to find his own answers for a given time.
In the case of the Cox's I find that the second hand reports to be vague and confusing at times to draw any conclusions or give any answers.
Everyone has to find his own answers for a given time.
In the case of the Cox's I find that the second hand reports to be vague and confusing at times to draw any conclusions or give any answers.
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