Hiking Out West vs. Mt. Washington, NH re: Weather Conditions, Gear, Etc.

[lx93]

Hello,

2 friends & I are just starting to plan a hike in the West in March/April/May somewhere (WA, OR, ID, MT, WY, CA, NV, NM) which will give my friend an idea of how they react to high altitude (12k+).

We are kind of in the "Do we have to buy a lot more gear (more layers, thicker boots) to do this?" stage.

We do NOT want to tech climb.

We do want to stay fairly close (6? hours driving time) to a city where we can get a last-minute airfare deal to, which kind of narrows us down to Seattle WA, Portland OR, etc.

1 of the friends is attempting to get ready for Kilimanjaro, & wants to see how they are affected by altitude. Both of them have run marathons before, so they are in good shape cardio-wise. I have completed the NE67.

This is NOT a "What kind of gear is required 4 Mt. Washington?" post- I realize that is as subjective as it gets. We are looking for Mt. Washington conditions at 12k+, or at least an idea of how much worse conditions will be as opposed to the typical Mt. Washington hike (I know, no such thing, but I hope you get my drift...)

Any feedback?

 

[Kevin Rooney]

If you plan to stay within 6 hours of Portland or Seattle, and want to get to 12K' or so, then you have 3 peaks which are 12K' (or so) - Rainier, Adams and Hood (nearly 12K'). Of the 3, only one (Adams, 12,276') has a non-technical route, that being up the South Spur. It's a great climb, done as either an overnight (staying at the Lunch Counter) or as a long day hike. The downside is, depending upon the year (March/April/May), you may have a road walk of 2-6 miles and 1-2K' additional elevation to get to the trailhead as Cascade snowfalls can be prodigious.

There's an excellent source of info here.

Hope this helps - will add more if it seems pertinent.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

I agree with Kevin that the South Spur is a fine route on Adams, and in early season (until Junish) you can ski most if not all of it (I have only been there in July/August, when skiing would not have been worth the effort). However, in any season remember to pack a large heavy gauge plastic bag to use for a sitting glissade over 3000 vertical feet down the upper part of the route on what resembles a bobsled run.

 

[Oldsmores]

I would not say there's a huge difference in equipment required. You may be a little more susceptible to the cold at 12K due to less efficiency in metabolism, but it's probably not a huge difference.
The biggest difference will be snow conditions. Avalanche danger is much greater, particularly in the Cascades. Consider a beacon, shovel, probes, etc. Also, if you're on glaciers you need to be concerned with crevasses (i.e., you may want to be roped up even on non-technical terrain).
Enjoy

 

[lx93]

Kevin, Dr. D, ‘Mores,

Thanx for the info, particularly Kevin- you answered a question I had a few months w/ enough detail to show that you really knew your subject, but in a way that I readily understood, and I truly appreciated it.

Dr. D,
A 3,000 ft glissade, now that sounds like FUN! Skiing isn’t an option right now, as my budget has been drained pretty well by decent hiking gear. But what do you mean by a heavy gauge plastic bag? Surely, you’re talking about something more than a garbage bag- if so, where’s a good place to get such a item?

Mores,
Thanx for pointing out the avalanche & crevasse danger- reliving Joe Simpson’s cry of SIMON!!!!!!!! in Touching The Void isn’t an experience I want to repeat! For guesstimating temps, would you say that the rule of thumb of 5 degrees F for every 1,000’ of elevation gain is a good place to start?

 

[Kevin Rooney]

To follow-up on Thom's glissading comment - the slope from the false summit to Lunch Counter (or nearly so) is almost perfect for glissading and is considered by many to the best glissade route in the country. On a super long one like this people often use a heavy duty trash bag (a compactor bag from Walmart is the best, and they also make great emergency gear) with holes cut on the bottom to put your legs thru. I've even seen people then duct tape the bag to their legs to seal it up, but that's always been a bit more effort than I've wanted to put into it.

The trash bag keeps you drier, helps save a $200 pair of Goretex pants, and most importantly - gives you a bit more speed!

Enjoy -

Kevin

 

[jrbren]

Would not Colorado give a wider option of non technical hikes above 12K feet ? You could go above 14K there without doing technical climbing (ie, glacier travel of vertical climbing). If your primary objective is to get above 12K' and see great new mountain scenery this might be a better option ? I have tons of non technical hike suggestions for WA cascades in the 6-8K range, Adams would be my only suggestions for above 12K' (I never done it but read about it). I would make sure my map and compass skills were up to date in case you get socked in with clouds, allot of terrain above treeline on Adams. If you lose your way you could wind up on the glaciers. Trash compactor bags can be found at any grocery store.

 

[Jazzbo]

I recall going out to Colorado and California in month of June back in mid 1970's when I was just out of college and really a greenhorn in general and being totally taken by surprise by snowdepths that were still 3 and 4' deep. We had to drastically pare back our hiking plans because of the postholing.

Of course there's issue of altitude acclimitazation that also messes up easterners hiking plans.

 

[peak_bgr]

I also recommend Adams. Camp at the lunch counter I also recommend, the sunsets are really amazing up there. The glissade everyone talks about is a blast. When I was there last year the top of the glissade path was over 4 feet deep, it got more shallow as we went down. It's very fast, we took it easy because it was still icy on our descent. Still only took us 15 minutes though.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Another suggestion occurred to me - if a primary criteria is being within 6 hours of Portland, that puts within range of Shasta (if just barely), and the route which meets your specs is Avalanche Gulch from the Bunny Flats trailhead. Check conditions carefully, and do call/visit the USFS Ranger Station in Mt Shasta first. They're excellent in providing accurate information. That route is aptly named, so make sure conditions are stable. The usual winter route on Shasta is Casaval Ridge (the ridge to the left as you're ascending) which avoids the AV danger but is considered a mildly technical route. It also requires an extra day or two.

I've been told by the Snow Rangers on Shasta that the best time for Shasta historically is about Memorial Day, but I think that observation is a bit biased toward backcountry skiers (Shasta is wildly popular with the local backcountry ski crowd).

Many on the site have done Shasta via AV Gulch, so if that's of interest to you just post your questions.

 

[lx93]

Narrowing Things Down

I appreciate all the posts, every one has given me some insight.

I think jrbren has caught on closest to what I'm asking- we're not necessarily limited to Portland & Seattle, & I need to do a bit more homework on my end b4 another post.

In case these factors narrow it down good enough, though, please feel free to chime in:

-12 to 14k elevation
-No technical gear needed
-No glacier travel/crevasses- or does this eliminate everything above xx,000 feet?
-Within 6 hours driving time of a major city like Albuquerque, NM (Wheeler Peak, 13k is 1 possibility); Denver, CO; Los Angeles, CA, etc. This is by no means an all-inclusive list, rather just some examples.

I'm guessing that 1 of the gear items that we'll need at 12-14k which is NOT needed in the Presidentials, besides readiness to descend at the 1st sign of altitude sickness, is helmets to protect against falling rocks, am I right?

 

[jrbren]

If interested in Colorado, you may want to check this link out
http://www.14ers.com/

BTW, I am assuming you are already prepared (have gear for) and experienced for winter ascent of Mt Washington or Adams in NH. The good news is for these mountains, the weather there in winter is as crappy as any place on earth (reference Brad Washburn's books). So if you have the clothing for these peaks you should be set for Colorado, the Cascades or Alaska. I would make sure you have a good down jacket with hood that covers your head from the wind for rest breaks and camps. As for helmet, I do not know that you would need one, depending on what route you take on what mountain. An ice ax(in addition to collapsable trekking poles with snow baskets) is probably a good thing to have whenever you are on snow above tree line if you do not know that things wont get icy.

Google the mountaineering guide service web sites(RMI, Alpine Ascents) and check out their equipment lists for Rainier, I would take the same stuff above treeline to the other peaks(including Washington in winter), just leave out the harness, belay device, prussics, slings, and the helmet. I would want everything else. Also if you get the book Mountaineering, Freedom of the Hills, this will be a very useful reference. Found in about any book store. Given you want to go in spring, snowshoes may be a good bet to add. And ofcourse, when travelling without a guide you would want map & compass (maybe gps although I have no experience with these). Altimeter would also be useful to supplement the map & compass in cloudy weather, if not just as a toy on a clear day.

Have fun.

 

[David Metsky]

You won't need helmets for protection from falling rocks on the non-technical stuff in Colorado. The hiking is pretty much the same as hiking in New England, only it starts and ends at higher levels.

The hiking trails are then problem, the timeframe is more of the problem. In Mar/Apr/May you can expect to find lots and lots of snow. The approaches may be long slogs.

 

[Snowflea]

Not to hijack this thread, but a sincere question: what is the definition of technical?

On many of the CO 14ers on routes I consider "nontechnical," I've seen folks carrying helmets. I myself have never carried one; however, on Little Bear, a class IV 14er, if there had been others on the upper part of the peak that day -- the "bowling alley" section, where YOU are one of the pins! -- I certainly would've wanted some plastic on my noggin! Lucky for me, I was the only one up there that day. I don't consider Little Bear "technical" because a rope wasn't needed. What do others think?

Also, in my own experience of one (~45 of the CO 14ers done so far), they ARE generally harder than the Whites, but perhaps that topic belongs on a separate thread...

 

[TMax]

We are looking for Mt. Washington conditions at 12k+, or at least an idea of how much worse conditions will be as opposed to the typical Mt. Washington hike (I know, no such thing, but I hope you get my drift...)

Any feedback?

My 2 cents...
Winter on Mt. Washington is FAR worse than most late Spring hiking out West. As long as you don't plan your hike for a predicted bad weather day. (I have a long story about that!) Be prepared for a much longer time above treeline and make sure your map/compass/GPS/route finding skills are good. There are no "marked" trails up there and I've not seen a lot of use of cairns like we have around here. The BIG difference is retreat from George is easy as compared to the mountains out west. Concerning non-technical hikes, my opinion of Avalanche Gulch on Shasta is that it is barely on the edge of non-technical. The 3000' up from Lake Helen is a consistent steep pitch with no place for mistakes. If you do lose footing, there's no crevasses to fall into or rocks to slam into, but if you don't arrest, it's a long way down. And I thought dropping off the red banks onto that snowfield was sketchy! I did do Mt. Elbert (CO high-point) which is just a long walk but I had some difficulty route-finding on the way back down. I couldn't find the spot where I needed to drop off the ridge. Also, the altitude can impair decision-making... so make sure you've studied maps and have a good understanding of the terrain before you start out! And most importantly, HAVE FUN!!

 

[blacknblue]

In March/April/May, there will still be A LOT of snow. You won't be able to do anything at 12K without significant travel on/through snow. Many places will be essentially impassable and many roads will still have their seasonal closures in effect. By mid-May things look better, but definitely not sooner.

Weather-wise, it won't be much different than the Whites -- variable between absolutely crappy and pretty darn nice, with everything in between (sometimes in the same day). The main difference is the greatly increased danger from avalanches, even in springtime when wet slabs in afternoon sun become prevalent.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

My 2 cents...
Winter on Mt. Washington is FAR worse than most late Spring hiking out West. As long as you don't plan your hike for a predicted bad weather day. (I have a long story about that!) Be prepared for a much longer time above treeline and make sure your map/compass/GPS/route finding skills are good. There are no "marked" trails up there and I've not seen a lot of use of cairns like we have around here. The BIG difference is retreat from George is easy as compared to the mountains out west. Concerning non-technical hikes, my opinion of Avalanche Gulch on Shasta is that it is barely on the edge of non-technical. The 3000' up from Lake Helen is a consistent steep pitch with no place for mistakes. If you do lose footing, there's no crevasses to fall into or rocks to slam into, but if you don't arrest, it's a long way down. And I thought dropping off the red banks onto that snowfield was sketchy! I did do Mt. Elbert (CO high-point) which is just a long walk but I had some difficulty route-finding on the way back down. I couldn't find the spot where I needed to drop off the ridge. Also, the altitude can impair decision-making... so make sure you've studied maps and have a good understanding of the terrain before you start out! And most importantly, HAVE FUN!!

I respectfully disagree. Above 9 or 10K' the spring weather in the Cascades can be severe. Reports of subzero weather and 100+mph winds on Shasta are not uncommon as late as May. And often there are multiple weather layers to contend with, especially near the Coast, affecting Adams/Rainier/Hood. On those mountains there is usually coastal marine weather to consider, which is quite apart from upper level weather. There can be 'clear-air disturbances' which are unpredictible but can cause white-out conditions on the mountain but not affecting the weather elsewhere.

I don't want this to degenerate into an "East vs. West" debate, but I've also climbed Washington dozens of times in winter, some under less than ideal conditions, so have a sound basis for comparison. What occurs occasionally on Mt Washington at 6K' occurs rather regularly at 12K and 14K', so use care when climbing the bigger mountains.

As for Stinkfeet's question re: what constitutes a technical climb - I've always read that a climb which requires ropes is technical. Climbs requiring crampons, ice axes and helmets are not usually considered technical, unless you add the rope requirement.

A helmet is essential for climbing Shasta, due to either rock fall or ice fall, and sometimes both. This past year's early June climb via AV Gulch saw us pelted with ice chunks, but no rocks - heavy riming had coated the Red Banks with enough ice to hold the rock in place. I'd almost prefer the rock, because at least you can usually see that coming! In the early morning light a fist-sized chunk of clear ice is tough to spot when traveling at high speed.

 

[lx93]

I think the feedback given thus far has made me look forward to the day when I'll have the $$$$ to buy avalanche gear, crevasse rescue gear & other toys which will make hiking Shasta, Adams, Baker & other Cascades a SAFE possibility.

In the meantime, though, I'd like to narrow this down to hikes that I can do w/ mostly gear that I have used in bagging the NE 67. I have read Not Without Peril, have an ice ax, MSR Lightning Ascent snowshoes, plenty of hydrophobic layers & other equipment to make getting back to the trailhead a reasonably safe possibility.

I plan on buying either Grivel G10's or Kahtoolas (not both- separate thread, please) & a helmet, but would like to stop there to concentrate on trivial items like college tuition (so that I can have enough income to buy a house? Nah- so that I can afford to travel to bag the Andes, Alps, Pyrennees... the list goes on...).

I'm not afraid of lots of snow, have seen plenty of it in the White Mts., ME, VT & the ADK, but have not yet experienced glacier/crevasse travel, and do not feel safe w/o proper stuff & real-life experience to get out of nasty situations that glaciers/crevasses can generate.

Anyway, would peaks like Wheeler (13k) in NM, most of CO's 14'ers, Boundary Peak (13k) in NV, involve glacier travel? More avalanche risk than the Presidentials? Timeframe is probably early March.

 

[jrbren]

Based on what you have told us about your means and objectives, I would avoid the west coast glaciated volcanoes(Shasta, Adams, Hood, etc.. for now, save them later in life. There are plenty of non glaciated options that will get you to new heights and great mountain scenery.
Avalanches and extreme winter weather will be a concern you need to be aware of on any mountain above tree line in the US or Canada in the winter/spring. Check with local climbers or rangers for details on your particular route before setting out. I also think the weather is generally cloudy along northern California up through Alaska until mid summer.

I do not know anything about Wheeler peak but I like the idea of looking south for this time of year for better weather(although still potentially severe winter weather).
http://www.summitpost.org/mountain/rock/150429/wheeler-peak-nm.html

Here is one on my to do list I hope to get to someday that may work for you in Arizona, just outside of Flagstaff:
http://www.summitpost.org/mountain/rock/150241/humphreys-peak.html

If you can speak Spanish do not stop you search at the border, Mexico's 14,600' La Malinche is a walk up that you may not even encounter snow on. You could also climb up to 16,500' on Iztaccihuatl before enountering glacier travel (to one of the false summits, the knees). To reach the summit does require glacier travel gear.
http://www.summitpost.org/mountain/rock/150260/la-malinche.html
http://www.summitpost.org/mountain/rock/150193/iztaccihuatl.html

The colorado 14ers are not glaciated to the best of my knowledge. I also think the probablity of stable clear weather in March-April is much better then in the Cascades. Your hazards will be possible extreme winter weather and deep snow and avalanche potential, and route finding of the clouds move in. Again this will very greatly on which mountain you choose and what route. I would post at the 14ers forum (link I gave above) for more info on which 14er to look at, they vary greatly in difficulty. Some are easier then eastern peaks, some are class 4 scrambles even in summer. Stick to the most popular ones and you may have a broken trail to follow

 

[AMF]

I think jrben is on target for you... Co peaks typically do not have glaciers, & have trade routes to the summits that generally involve fewer hazards. You will also have more options for higher elevations, if that is a goal. HOWEVER, that time of year in any of the western ranges you should be aware of the avalanche risk.