I'm I the only one anti-GPS out there?

[Mark_151]

I've been using one all season for the first time, while mountain biking on unfamiliar trail systems. I'm competent enough with a map and compass to get by passably well in mountainous situations, but don't know how to utilize a compass alone when you're on fireroads and singletrack for which you don't have a map. My old system when exploring such areas involved keeping careful mental track of trail junctions and sometimes using colored ribbons I carried for such times.

But a few times last season, I found myself trying to backtrack after many hours of strenuous riding, my mental facilities less than razor sharp, sitting at a junction, and wondering if I'd REALLY made a turn here, or if I was mistaken, with miles to go to the trailhead and the day winding up fast...

So now, I have a GPS receiver on my handlebars, and it gives me much needed situational awareness, although the first times out I proceed with conservative caution until I get a good feel for the area I'm exploring.

It also allows me to dump the tracks into ExpertGPS at home and see my ride on a topo map. After multiple rides and track dumps, I have a great map of the area I've been exploring.

Mark -- certified techno geek.

 

[KayakDan]

I am by no means a techie gadget person. A gear junkie-yes-but not a "techno-junkie". That said,I still felt I needed a GPS unit. I'm still trying to figure it out,but I can set a waypoint,use "go to" and find my way back. On the coast of Maine,when the fog rolls in,that can be a valuable insurance policy. I still rely on chart and compass in the fog,and love paddling in the fog,but just in case it all goes wrong...
I also wanted a way to get a fairly reliable altitude and distance reading,so I have an idea how much farther the end of the trail is when backpacking.
I might even load the software i bought...someday!

 

[carole]

I am not anti-GPS but what works for me is: no phone, no GPS, no poles, no dog....

 

[JohnL]

I certainly do not deny anyone the joy of having a GPS and the comfort level it gives them so I'm not anti-GPS. I would say I'm agnostic about them. A GPS just does not have any appeal for me. Here's why:
If I have to use a GPS to get someplace, I don't want to be there.
If I have to use a GPS to get me out of a place I should not be in, I should be more careful about where I'm going.
If I rely on my GPS to get me out of a place that it got me to only because I couldn't get to it any other way, and the GPS fails, I'm screwed.
I don't really care that the trail junction I'm standing at is 358 feet higher than the last trail junction I passed.
I cannot be bothered spending time trying to figure them out. And then remembering it all.
I've got better things to spend a couple hundred dollars on.

Mind you, this is my personal philosophy on GPS's. It's not an indication of how I feel about anyone using them. Have fun.

JohnL

 

[Remix]

IMHO, there is too much emphasis on the merits of GPS rather than education about its use and limitations....

Given that the price on several units have fallen below the price of altimeters (another electronic piece of gizmo) and there are quite a number of people buying and using them, shouldn't the focus be on education?

Some examples.

1) My GPS manual says my unit is WAAS enabled and has an accuracy of 3meters....so thats always the case (True of false)?

2) How can I expect battery life to be affected by cold weather?

3) If I need to communicate my position to the authorities, whats the best way to do so.

4) My GPS altimeter is always correct to within a few feet (True or false)

5) I can trust my odometer completely if its telling me I should have come to some point by now. (T/F)

6) The electronic compass in my unit is completely trustworthy. (T/F)

etc

Better yet, make the first half of the course focus on map and compass.

 

[mavs00]

1) false - depends on reception, Most times, I'm within 20-30 feet, but at times I'm not with 150.

2) significantly reduced. (by alot too).

3) ummmmm, After I walk out, I'll just tell them (or show them on my unit) where I think I was lost . BTW, In high-visibility, I still find triangulation the best method (with a GPS or without) for positioning.

4) false - It needs to be calibrated to a known benchmark on hike day to accuratly take into account current barometric conditions. (takes 1 minute to do) Then I find it pretty accurate.

5) Nope, It a 2D map (like all of them) in a 3D world, so there will always be some margin of error in accounting for terrain. Additionally, depending on your software (map, if you will) you may find small differences between makers.

6) Nothing is completly trustworthy. If I were in a threatning situation, I would double check it with my hand compass. In a discre[ancy, I would go with that (Uncle Sam drilled that one in). With that said, I've never been in error with mine.

REMIX,
You bring up a great point. If your gonna own, or use one, you ought to know it's limitations and uses. Same thing with any other navigational device/tool. For far longer than GPS's, compasses, or maps, there were those who (once upon a time) navigated the woods soley on feel and terrain features and it worked for them.

This debate will bever be won, by either side. There are those that think, that we (that use them) are deficient in outdoor skills, and in some cases they may be right. However, on the other hand, Read the recent "lost hikers on Oscela" (or whatever mountain it is). I'm willing to bet, had they had a functioning GPS unit and knew how to use it, they never would have needed SAR in the first place and would be laughing aboutthier "little adventure" over beers all next semester

 

[maineguy]

"4) false - It needs to be calibrated to a known benchmark on hike day to accuratly take into account current barometric conditions. (takes 1 minute to do) Then I find it pretty accurate"

My understanding is that GPS calculates altitude using the satellite signals only. Barometric pressure is not used as in mechanical altimeters. I believe that a minimum of 4 satellites must be being received for the altimeter function to operate properly, but that is what was in the instruction of my GPS unit which is about 8 years old. It may also depend on the sophistication of the unit electronics.

There may be units which have a mechanical altimeter built-in, so I'm not sure question 4 can be answered without additional info.

Either way, I don't believe the altitude readings are very accurate,
since the resolution of most mechanical altimeters is pretty rough.

 

[Bhoody]

another point

This debate will bever be won, by either side. There are those that think, that we (that use them) are deficient in outdoor skills, and in some cases they may be right.

Mavs00 - As the poster of the original question I was not inferring this at all. I was just asking if others thought that they (GPS's) took some of the adventure out of the journey. Say I told someone about a swimming hole that was not on a trail. I happened to have the cooridnates and give them to someone who uses their GPS to guide them right to the exact spot. Thats all.

I've go nothing but love for my fellow hikers, whether their GPS toting or not!

 

[Raymond]

The only place I've ever encountered anyone actually using a GPS unit was on the climb up Haystack Mountain in the Adirondacks, and the guys using the units thought they were on Marcy. I pointed out the much higher mountain to the west for them.

 

[RoySwkr]

Remember that your GPS will always work best when it has a 360 degree view of the sky. If it's hanging from a lanyard around your neck, it only has a 180 degree view of the sky because your body is blocking the rest of the view. That's where those shoulder strap mounted cases come in very handy;

My sister attaches hers to her hat with the antenna sticking up, this cures interference with body parts but not trees, ridges, etc.

Originally posted by Remix
4) My GPS altimeter is always correct to within a few feet (True or false)

Definitely false. Even the expensive altimeters in aircraft are not that accurate, because they don't need to be, they use other signals for precise navigation near the ground. If a GPS signal is accurate to 20-30 feet horizontally it is probably only accurate to 40-60 feet vertically. Think of it as a geometry problem in triangulation: you can figure out where you are fairly accurately if you can sight on 2 points 90 degrees apart but potential errors are much greater if the 2 points are only 10 degrees apart. The satellites can fill 360 degrees from you horizontally but are in a much narrower slice vertically so the error from a minor difficulty is greater in elevation.

 

[John Graham]

I feel that the GPS should be just another tool in the navigators tool box, in no way should it replace a map and compass, but rather supplement them. When I had my first GPS, it only gave me my position as coordinates and I would have to plot my position on a map to see where I was. This requires an understanding of coordinate systems that surprisingly few hikers have. I suspect that many of those who dismiss a GPS as a superfulous gadget have no idea how to use the coordinate system.

It's all very well to visually locate yourself using terrain association and a compass, but how are you going to communicate your exact location if you are not near a clearly identifiable landmark. One might need this capability in order to summon rescuers in the event of someone needing emergency evacuation. Also, in the hands of an expert with map and compass, the likelyhood of needing to summon help is greatly reduced.

Any of us should be prepared to navigate in fog, a white out or darkness, and it takes far more skill to navigate in zero visibility by dead reckoning. I doubt any one could navigate in featureless terrain with out visibility once they become disoriented.

It is undeniable that a GPS is of little use in the hands of untrained user, but the same is true of a map and compass. It is none of anyones business what navigational tools a wilderness user uses, but it becomes a concern for us all is someone needs rescue because they lacked the ability to navigate in adverse conditions.

I would be less concerned about the loaded down with maps and navigational devices and more concerned about those who claim to navigate by "instinct", often without even the use of a map and compass. If I am out with someone and ask to borrow their map or compass, and they can't quickly find them, I can usually assume that they are not expert in their use, and are relying solely on visual orientation, or worse yet, blindly following some one else.

 

[Warren]

At least staying in the woods an unplanned night isn't generally fatal in the summertime. I bought my GPS after the woman died on Lafayette last March, and I realized that with a GPS she and her husband could have found the right trail even in a whiteout. (Compass would have worked here, also.) Also thought about the ranger that died going from Bond to Galehead, not taking the trail down to Zealand hut because he evidently walked by it. (Don't think a compass would have helped here.)And that's why I go to the woods, to enjoy myself.

Oddly I was thinking about this Saturday on Tabletop and this occurred to me:

In both the cases you site the cold weather may have rendered the power cell or the screen inoperable. Additionally hypothermia may also interfere with the operation of the device.

While it may have made the difference and can help every device has limitations: some parts of Harriman State Park interfere with compass readings due to the presence of a vein of iron passing through the park, my dyslexia interferes with correct compass reading from time to time...

 

[mavs00]

First, John Graham makes some excellant point in his recent thread. Thanks.

"My understanding is that GPS calculates altitude using the satellite signals only. Barometric pressure is not used as in mechanical altimeters. I believe that a minimum of 4 satellites must be being received for the altimeter function to operate properly, but that is what was in the instruction of my GPS unit which is about 8 years old. It may also depend on the sophistication of the unit electronics.

There may be units which have a mechanical altimeter built-in, so I'm not sure question 4 can be answered without additional info.

Either way, I don't believe the altitude readings are very accurate, since the resolution of most mechanical altimeters is pretty rough.

You're right in some respect, and I suppose it would depend on the unit, but I KNOW that the Garmin series (mine is the eTrex Vista) uses barometric pressure for altitude. I'm fairly certain many handheld models still do. I'm under the understanding that the GPS satellites merely triangulate your 2D position on earth. They have absolutely no map or general reference as to roads, landmarks, water or any other global feature you might be near, including your level above sea level.

It's up to the actual software you load in that determines that geographical representation of the area around you, including topographic contour lines. (my default map was a basic US map only showing roads and lakes. It was of zero use until I bought and loaded topo software. My altimeter worked no matter what software is present. It also is affected (slightly when a front moves through). I can also choose to display the current pressure (in millibars) if I so choose.

I also have found mine to be quite accurate and am generally within 20-30 feet of known summit elevations and benchmarks whenever I check (I don't always do though, only if I am playing). It must be calibrated on hike day to get the best accuracy.

My altimeter will work (properly), with 4,3,2,1 or zero satellites in view.

 

[John Graham]

part of being able to use a GPS is understanding it's limitations, and how these shortcomings can be compensated for.

You need to know whether your GPS uses a helix or quadrilinear antenna, thus knowing how it should be oriented for maximum performance (flat for a helix and 45 degrees for a quadrilinial).

You need to refer to your satellite screen prior to taking a positional fix, and shift your location to a more open spot and perhaps rotating it around looking for the most satellites.

You need to understand how cold weather or low batteries can weaken your signal, know how to check your battery meter and replace your batteries as soon as you get a low battery signal. In winter you may need to switch to Lithium batteries and bear in mind the your micro processor may not function in subzero temperatures even with the lithium batteries. This may mean carrying the GPS against the body and using an external antenna.

A GPS may be able to maintain a signal lock in a area with heavy overhead cover, where as it could not do an initial satellite aquisition in the same locale. So if I anticipate needing my GPS in an area with confined overhead, I will make sure it has a strong signal lock and that it is attached to by pack harness at the optimum angle in a more open area, before plunging into that ravine.

Like Warren, I have also hiked in iron rich areas that interere with the compass, which is why the GPS is good for a back up. I must confess though, that I have had far more technical problems with a GPS than with a compass. The thing about a compass error caused by local magnetic fields is that you may take a while to realize what is happening, where as with a GPS, as long as you have strong signal lock, you can rely on it's readings. Usually it either works, or it doesn't.

I am a SAR volunteer and a GPS is invaluable for keeping track of exactly where we have searched and where we have not, but we still pratice regularly navigating by dead reckoning using pace counting. In addition to checking our GPS signals frequently, we also check our two way radios and cell phones to see if they are functioning. We have found areas we call "black holes" where none of our devices work, but we practice setting up radio relays with line of sight to establish radio contact.

Similarily, if a GPS signal is unreliable, you can pace out a distance and azimuth to an open area, and project a waypoint back to your original location using the distance and back azimuth.

 

[MichaelJ]

Just a comment on elevation and barometer...

If a GPS unit has locked onto enough satellites, it can give a 3-dimensional fix and determine your elevation. The closer at least one of those satellites is to the horizon, the more accurate the calculation.

Certain Garmin units contain a barometric altimeter. By enabling a setting in the menus, every time the GPS has a sufficiently accurate fix on the elevation, it will reset the barometer. Thus you get the best of both worlds - when in a ravine or under dense tree cover, you still have a fairly accurate elevation reading; whenever you pop into the open and get a lock, the altimeter is reset, correcting for changes in weather and atmospheric conditions.

 

[Frosty]

In both the cases you site the cold weather may have rendered the power cell or the screen inoperable. Additionally hypothermia may also interfere with the operation of the device.

I don't think in either case GPS was avaialble, and in one case probably not a compass, either, but your point is well taken. A GPS without power is worthless.

Blind reliance on any piece of gear without understanding it is not a good idea. (Think keeping your head inside a down sleeping bag over night in sub-zero temps.) Cold does severely cut down on battery power available because chemical reactions are slower at cold temperatures. A person is smart to carry extra batteries, not just for the GPS, but also headlamp. In cold weather, carry lithium batteries, which retain power much better in extreme cold than alkaline. Also, warming batteries will let them put out more power (if the power was lost due to cold). I'm thinking more of putting batteries under your armpits vice holding tehm over a flame.

Hypothermia would affect both a GPS user and a compass user, but again, you are absolutelyl right. Faulty reasoning will prevent one from making the right choices or doing tasks requiring fine motor skills. When I think of this, I think of the movie about Appollo 13, and how the Houston engineers had a solution; it was a question of whether of not the oxygen-deprived astormauts could implement it.

Very interesting descussion here.

Frosty

 

[CaptCaper]

to wear a helmet or not

This will be short and sweet.

The bottom line here is a safety factor for me. GPS,a good one properly set up will give you a huge edge for safety.
There would be a lot more people alive today if they had one and could use it period.

Sorry folks that's a fact.

Now I personally won't leave home without one. Its all priorities.
Some bikers won't were helmets some do,if I can use that to compare.

Also I record everyhike I do and collect all the vertical and horizontal data for later use and for use in my log.

I use a very small antenna and cable and it will recieve without losing fix,in sub temps,rain,and with a corrected accuracy factor. Also I have no problem with reading the screen in limited vis like white outs,etc.

I don't have any of the problems you guys have with it sorry.Of course I do have a good setup and knowledge base of using it.

I can do things with it most people can't comprehend. Not to mention if search and rescue had your or one of your lost or injured party's coordinates searching in fog or at night.

Oh by the way,I do have three maps plus 3 additional compasses also. For those of you who think I might be stupid enought not too. I did ace the Plotting,Nav. portions of the USCG Master Captains test to show I know a little about dead reckoning.

It's not a toy neither is a bikers helmet. The gov didn't spend that money so we can play navigator wannabee's.


JMOP of course.

Jim

 

[BeninVA]

I am not anti-GPS, but I am not totally against them. I think the challenge and the impressiveness of an orienteer, plus the fact that you (from my own knowledge) can not always get a consistent signal keeps me away. Oh yeah price is another factor.

Although I do see the utility in it. I have been out on some hikes with a local search and rescue group and have seen the benefits. Also, I have a buddy who finds great benefit when he kayaks. I personally probably will carry one.

 

[woodstrider]

Anti GPS

No, you are not.

 

[rambler]

These Garmin models 101 and 201 are very lightweight and small. Handy to have for reassurance of your position, or other emergencies. Most hikes, it won't need to come out of your pack, but...GPS
The 201 has compass and altimeter, the 301 has a compass that works while stationary, the 201 compass works as you move.

For useless equipment shall I start a thread on the altimeter wrist watches?