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Dayhike or overnight the Santanonies?

  • Dayhike

    Votes: 15 35.7%
  • Overnight

    Votes: 25 59.5%
  • Hike Couch?Are you nuts?

    Votes: 2 4.8%

  • Total voters
    42
  • Poll closed .

Silverback

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Location
Victor, NY
Since we already have an Allen poll, I thought I'd ask my burning question. Is it better to dayhike or overnight Santanoni, Couch and Panther?

The distance, at least, is well within my day-hike range.

Just these three and Big Slide left for my 46.

I'm open to any and all advice.

Thanks
 
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Day hike it, long day. Bradley Pond is a mess. It will be a long day for anybody but remember you have a lot on road too. Took me a good 10 hours and I did it alone.


Hiker13901
Binghamton, NY
 
It could be a gamble vs a sure thing. If you camp for a night, you can get up early, and it'll be a sure thing to get all three. Even if conditions aren'T great. If you are doing it as a day trip, and thinggs slow you down, (or if you aren't that fast), you may end up missing one, and you'll have to take another trip to get it.

I view camping more or less as insurance. You pay a bit more, might not need it, but it's there if you do.
 
Pete_Hickey said:
It could be a gamble vs a sure thing. If you camp for a night, you can get up early, and it'll be a sure thing to get all three.
Ditto
Camping will also allow you some time to enjoy the trip a bit more. Nothing like sitting on Panther enjoying the sweet feeling of successfully climbing Santanoni and Couchie and hearing soooo much about them.

You could go in the night before and get an early start (BTW, Bradley Pond L/T sees very little midweek activity) and be back down in time to either hike out to your vehicle or spend the night if you decide.

BTW, congrats on picking a great peak to finish on - BS was mine too. Taking our time and enjoying the Brothers with a big group of close friends (up and back) and fall foliage was a highlight of my day.
 
Pete_Hickey said:
It could be a gamble vs a sure thing. If you camp for a night, you can get up early, and it'll be a sure thing to get all three. Even if conditions aren'T great. If you are doing it as a day trip, and thinggs slow you down, (or if you aren't that fast), you may end up missing one, and you'll have to take another trip to get it.

I view camping more or less as insurance. You pay a bit more, might not need it, but it's there if you do.

I'm with Pete on this. Plus, if you want to linger here or there, you'll have more time to do it and enjoy it. Unless you don't have the time, why rush through it? Especially if it's your only visit to the area.
 
I share the same thoughts on the overnight and think Pete expressed it well that it being an insurance policy.

That said, Guiness has the attitude that a dayhike is what the S/C/P challenge is all about. He shared that with me the last time we were together and I had to really consider the idea...

A second and related poll would be in what order to do the three! (And, I think this answer depends on how you do it (day or overnight). All three are still on my list.
 
If you camp, think about camping after you've hiked the range. That way you can savour the day rather than face the prospect of the long mind numbing trek out after a big day. In spite of the messy last portion (I confess I mostly walked ON the water which was in its white chrystaline form) the hike in to the LT with a pack aint that bad elevation gain-wise. Good move saving BS for last. Its not as long a haul for all that champagne.
 
Thanks for the input so far. I am thinking about camping one night, at least as an option, but, to be honest, I'd prefer to stay at the DEC campground in Newcomb and dayhike in order to avoid taking a full pack through the muck. I plan on hiking this in early June, when it is very likely I'll have to swim in. The lighter the better.

OK. Another question.

How would a day hike of this range compare to a dayhike of Marcy/Skylight?Gray from the Loj, Cliff/Redfield from the Loj or Haystack/Basin/Saddleback from the Garden? The Sewards from Ward Brook?

Trying to get some point of reference to time and difficulty here.

What would be a reasonable hiking time to Bradley Pond? To Times Square? T/S round trip to Couch?

In my head, I see 2 1/2 hours to Bradley, another 1 1/2 to T/S, 3 R/T to Couch, 2 R/T to Santanoni and an inconsequential R/T to Panther, with a 3 1/2 return from T/S to the parking lot. This would include summit time. I'm an average hiker who usually takes few rest stops and I think these would be conservative estimates. Any thoughts on that?

Thank you.
 
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If backpacking is a chore, day hike it even if you need to go twice it is the same 2 days you would take to camp :)
If backpacking is an experience, do the backpack, I would suggest camping at the flattish area partway up the herd path as the footing is OK that far

Silverback said:
inconsequential R/T to Panther
I had the perpetual rain described in AdirondackJourney.com, several hours of wet bushes although the ranger at Harris Lake said it only drizzled twice there and nothing at her house nearby. The herd path to Santanoni was straightforward if wet but I got lost in the maze of trails toward Panther and had to return to Times Square where other hikers gave me better directions. I blew over half an hour on Panther which was a bonus peak as I was climbing Santononi for P2K not 46. Guess what that means I did about Couchie :)
 
most don't make it....

I'd say, from reading trip reports, and only trip reports, that most people do NOT get all three peaks when they attempt to do them in a dayhike. I'd say the margin is between 6 to 7 out of ten don't make all three.

Mike
 
Silverback - I have never hiked into Bradley Pond Lean-to from the road, so I cannot tell you the time coming in, but here are my times - and I am a slow uphill hiker, fast downhill hiker: These times did not include lounging and eating on each peak.

BP L/T to TS 3:10 hours
TS to Couchie 1:45
Couchie to TS 1:25
TS to Sant 0:55
Sant to TS 0:45
TS to Panther and return 1:00 *See note
TS to BP L/T 1:40
BP L/T to UW parking Lot 2:15 Note: this is UW lot and not the normal BP Lot

*I honestly don't know how long we were on top of Panther, but it seemed not more than 20 minutes each way.

Hope this helps.

By the way, the trip out also includes a 20 minute turn-around to go get my water filter left hanging on the side of the lean-to. :)
 
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I voted overnight, but in June a dayhike might be more enjoyable because of the mud and black flies. I don't have a record of my times, but Rick's times sound about right. It is perhaps a little easier than a Haystack/Basin/Saddleback hike from the Garden.

If it wasn't black fly season my preference would be overnight to allow time on the summits, and provide some contingency for unforeseen problems. When I was finishing the 46 I did a lot of the "long day hikes" as easier two half day hikes with an ultra-light bivouac along the way. I have a 3-4 hour drive to the high peak trailheads, so I combined the drive days with half day hikes. In several cases (including the Santanonis) I was on summits at or near sunset and sunrise, and had time to scramble to/from a legal bivouac site in the dusk/dawn light. The 4K limit on camping has become 3500' so the scramble would be farther now. The views on Panther and Santanoni were very nice in the late afternoon and near sunset. And Couchsachraga was very attractive in the early morning with wisps of light fog drifting through the forested summit - one of my favorite experiences of the 46. I did the hike in mid-August, started mid-afternoon and finished late morning the next day.

I believe I have read reports of an unmarked, but legal elevation camp area between Bradley Pond and Times Square. Somebody, please correct me if I am wrong. You might find something near the Couchie swamp which is just below 3500', but it may not be pleasant in June (or anytime).
 
Mark Schaefer said:
I believe I have read reports of an unmarked, but legal elevation camp area between Bradley Pond and Times Square. Somebody, please correct me if I am wrong. You might find something near the Couchie swamp which is just below 3500', but it may not be pleasant in June (or anytime).

Others (perhaps Mavs00, if he's reading this thread?) will have exact coordinates, but I seem to recall a spot before hitting Panther Brook. Assuming it's legal (I'm not sure), it's a long way to schlep a full pack and not easy to get to water, but it would save a lot of elevation hiking if you were camping. I've also heard there are sites off the herd path, just beyond the beaver dam, but I've not checked them out.
 
It took us 2 trips to climb all 3 but the melting snow and route finding held us to only Panther on our first trip which was an overnighter. We went back in the summer and dayhiked the other 2 easier ones :rolleyes: . I agree with what a lot of the others have said. Drive up and hike in on day one. Enjoy the leanto with it's view of Panther peak. Start early and climb the peaks savoring what they each have to offer. I really enjoyed the remoteness of that area. On the way out, if you have to hike the last part of the road in the dark it's still pretty easy. If you use Deet and a head net the bugs aren't too overwhelming.
 
I voted day hike, but for me it would have to be two day hikes. It's incredibly muddy in September or October; it's going to be hell in June.

Your time estimates match up pretty well with my experience, except my round-trip for Couchee was 3:45. The first time Susan and I went up, we did Santanoni and Panther, then headed back out. Took us 11 hours all together. More than an hour each way for Santanoni. There were a few false summits.
When I returned solo to bag Couchsachraga 364 days later, it took me 12 hours seven minutes total time, but I had spent about 20 minutes atop Panther and I had a sore leg the entire trip (had foolishly worn new boots two days earlier on hike of Allen.)

Figure close to a half hour for the round trip for Panther, plus however much time you want to spend up there; it's a great summit. There is a pretty steep climb to it, though, that could cause you some serious problems if you fell. The third time I went up it, though, there seemed to be more erosion that somehow made it easier than the first two times.

My third trip, I should mention, was so that Susan could bag Couchsachraga. I didn't mind; I wrote that Couchee was my second-favorite mountain in my Forty-Sixer report.

Here were our times for this hike, so you can concentrate on beating them when you go:

Start: 6:32 a.m.
Herd path: 8:28 a.m. (we'd improved — under two hours)
Panther Brook: 9:14 a.m.
Nine minute rest.
Ridge (junction between Times Square and Panther): 10:14 a.m. (waited three minutes for Susan to arrive)
One minute to Times Square.
Swamp (low point between ridge and Couchsachraga): 11:28 a.m.
(The herd path, incidentally, is off toward the right after you cross the swamp, not straight ahead or to the left. Sometimes there's a ribbon marking it, sometimes not.)
Summit: 12:04 p.m. There are several false summits along the way.
Lunch; left top at 12:29 p.m.
Swamp: 1:05 p.m. Spent some time chatting with a mother and son on the other side. He was planning to head out to Santanoni later, but I can't imagine that could have made it.
Times Square: 2:18 p.m.
Re-visited Panther, left summit at 2:39 p.m.
Ridge junction: 2:55 p.m.
Lower Panther Brook crossing: 3:57 p.m.
15 minute break.
State trail: 4:58 p.m. Everything's taking us longer on the descent, I notice.
Car: 6:59 p.m.

So 12 hours 27 minutes, this time. We were 46 and 47 years old at the time, September 12, 2003. It was the same day that Johnny Cash and John Ritter died, for what that's worth.

I think Couchee may have been Susan's second-favorite, too.

One other tip: Wear a hat, for the times you have to put your head down and bull your way through the branches.
 
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Silverback said:
How would a day hike of this range compare to a dayhike of Marcy/Skylight?Gray from the Loj, Cliff/Redfield from the Loj or Haystack/Basin/Saddleback from the Garden? The Sewards from Ward Brook?

I think it's kind of hard to compare. Physically, Marcy/Skylight/Gray is much harder, however if you are in good shape, the trails are good, and it's easy to just keep moving. Same kind of thing with H/S/B. For the strong, fit hikker, these are easy.

The first few miles are easy road, then the trail condition is what makes it hard. Strength/fit does not come into play here. When on the herd path, the zig-zagging, branch ducking, pulling pine needles out of yoru eye, etc all slow you down.

I'm sure you'll find people incapable of doing M/S/H in a day who are capable of doing the Santanonis in a day, and visa versa.

FWIW, I've done it a bunch of ways. All in a day, camping, and only having time for two in a day. Very different as a day trip.
 
rhihn said:
Others (perhaps Mavs00, if he's reading this thread?) will have exact coordinates, but I seem to recall a spot before hitting Panther Brook. Assuming it's legal (I'm not sure), it's a long way to schlep a full pack and not easy to get to water, but it would save a lot of elevation hiking if you were camping. I've also heard there are sites off the herd path, just beyond the beaver dam, but I've not checked them out.

I've stayed in that spot, it's marginally legal, but you can get a small tent far enough off the herdpath to be legal (150'). plus if you are creative, there are other spots nearby and "OFF THE TRAIL" that you can use.

I'd say overnight it, and stay in that area, if not for any other reason than it's quite special. There are cliff bands back in there (out of sight) that hold wind, so if there is a breeze, you can hear it "moaning" through the tops of the trees, very cool. It's loney (in a good way) and soulful, and by far more "wilderness like" than many other camp areas. One of my favorites. It is however 40 minutes (350' higher) than the leanto area, so it's tougher to get to. TREAD LIGHTLY IN THERE.

If you planned on staying at the leanto, day hike it. It's awful. the leanto itself is fine, but you cross through muck and crap to get there,and the area looks barren since everyone has picked it clean for firewood. I hated the leanto, and plus, people showed up at 1 AM. Overall, a depressing spot, you'd be better in a campground.

p.s. Rick's times are similar to ours (without the kids), and everyone in this house (there all sitting around me now) agrees that the Dixs and the Sewards were more difficult than the Santinonis. Not even close.
 
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Thanks everyone, for all your help and advice. Very useful, and the "insurance" metaphor is compelling. I'm still torn, but better educated. Mavs, I've heard the same comments about the Bradley Pond lean-to from others, which is why I hesitate to camp there, especially at the height of black fly season.

I have the luxury in June of being very flexible with my time, so I can pick a decent day to hike that range. Problem is that it will likely be my first High Peaks trip of the year, so I won't be in hiking shape that I would be in July or August when a 12 or 13 hour dayhike would not be such a big deal. Given the uniqueness (is that a word?) of the area, it makes sense to take the time to enjoy it rather than rush through it just to get it done. Maybe it would be best to drive the four plus hours up, backpack in and camp one night, hike the range and pack out the next. Or maybe, I could plan on two dayhikes. Or maybe I could just.... Aw hell, I'll figure it out.

I'm afraid "46er fever" is making me crazy (ok, crazier) after almost six years of this endeavor. You would think by now I would have the solution to my dilema at hand. But, what a long, strange and magnificent trip it's been.

Anyone up for a Santaoni trip in June?
 
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mavs00 said:
If you planned on staying at the leanto, day hike it. It's awful. the leanto itself is fine,.....

Hmmm. My impression of the area is quite different. I found it quite nice, however the past two times I was there was in Oct/Nov. The time I stayed there in the summer, was a while ago, soon after that lean-to was built. The old lean-to was really bad.

One thing I liked in that lean-to, is the morning sun, rising over a peak of Panther. Beautiful. Especially on a cold Nov. morning.
 
Pete_Hickey said:
Hmmm. My impression of the area is quite different. I found it quite nice, however the past two times I was there was in Oct/Nov. The time I stayed there in the summer, was a while ago, soon after that lean-to was built. The old lean-to was really bad.

One thing I liked in that lean-to, is the morning sun, rising over a peak of Panther. Beautiful. Especially on a cold Nov. morning.

It certainly is only an opinion, but I wasn't impressed is all.

Ohhhh, the view was nice. But last summer though, I thought the area was showing some REAL HEAVY signs of wear. little stubs (cut trees) everywhere, deep swampy mud going in. Perhaps I just got it on a bad week.
 
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