Wildcat Winter Rules - Background and Discussion

[RoySwkr]

So ... if anyone is considering this trail [over E] in winter, in addition to crampons - bring a rope.

There is a bushwhack bypass of the most dangerous spot that I've used twice in winter - turn R uphill in scrub before the ledge traverse

A is easily accessible from Carter Notch via 19 Mile Brook.

Tell that to the guy who was seriously injured at the slide, I consider that route to be as difficult/dangerous as over E assuming you bushwhack the worst spot as above

 

[bikehikeskifish]

For what it's worth, the time window's plenty if you just want to tag D, since A is easily accessible from Carter Notch via 19 Mile Brook. My suspicion is that will become more popular and the ridge will be less traversed. Spend Saturday doing A, overnight somewhere, grab D Sunday morning and be home for football.

(this post assumes the mindset of the peakbagger who is solely interested in tagging the peak and less interested in the overall hiking experience)

Wildcat is so far for most people I can't imagine making the drive for only one of them. And what is this overnight business you speak of? You must be one of those people that nobody calls... "Dad"

Tell that to the guy who was seriously injured at the slide, I consider that route to be as difficult/dangerous as over E assuming you bushwhack the worst spot as above

Yeah, Doug Paul likes to cite this too. Is there only one person ever hurt there? I've only been over it a few times in winter and even when crusted over, I walked across it with snowshoes without any sign of an issue. You expressed concern in last year's thread about the 19MBT - A - D - A - 19MBT distance too, if memory serves.

Tim

 

[Sunshine Chris]

Thanks for everyone's input and efforts in attending the meeting. It was very infornmative.

 

[MichaelJ]

With proper traction & self-arrest device, plus a willingness to turn back if it's solid ice, that slide can easily be passed in one to two dozen steps. I don't remember the circumstances of the injured person. Also, when I've been on it, it's always been broken out to a reasonably level walking surface "cut" in the snow.

Compare and contrast to East Osceola, please.

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

With proper traction & self-arrest device, plus a willingness to turn back if it's solid ice, that slide can easily be passed in one to two dozen steps. I don't remember the circumstances of the injured person. Also, when I've been on it, it's always been broken out to a reasonably level walking surface "cut" in the snow.

Compare and contrast to East Osceola, please.

Lauky and I went up that way this past winter and had the same experience you mentioned, that is the trail was broken out and we easily passed over the slide. East Osceola is somewhat different. It is actually steeper and the slopes are longer, but there are trees you can grab hold of. If you 'lose it' on the slide and go over the side there is nothing to grab hold of and you're off into the wild blue yonder.

The danger on the slide is when it sets up hard. There is a two way slope: the direction you're going and also off to the side. IMO it's the sideways slope that is dangerous.

 

[MichaelJ]

Thanks, Ed. I did the EO slide only once ever, and that was in winter in near-whiteout conditions. I actually have no idea what it looks like!

Well, I hate to say it, but …*we as hikers have no right or entitlement to a safer, faster, or easier route to a peak out in the National Forest. For example, I've heard people say they want to hike the Cannon ski slopes because the trails are rocky & steep & kinda suck. Well, uh, yeah. It's not supposed to be a sidewalk or smooth-groomed (literally) trail. It's supposed to be the woods.

Before you accuse, by the way, I do *not* have Wildcat D in winter. This will mean paying $10 if I want to go that route. But maybe I'll ski down.

 

[rocket21]

I think it's important to make it clear that the Wildcat A slide can be *very* dangerous.

Yes, there can be a trough that allows for reasonably easy passage in good conditions.

February '10

However, in lesser conditions, it's an absolute no-fall zone. Interestingly enough, I've never stopped in the middle of it on the bad days to take a photo of the no fall zone. Nonetheless, with a few feet of snow, it's a good slide with a jump at the end to launch you into the air. Here's what it looks like without snow...you'll have to use your mind to remove the leaves from the saplings, and then add about 3-4 feet of snow.

December '09

November '08

March '09

April '09

With the East Osceola slide crossing, there is a little bit of woods before it drops into the next section of slide, so one may have a chance to grab something. There is also the option to go out and back via Tripoli Road (with the short left descend bushwhack around the chimney bypass if necessary between the peaks).

If you've ever truly lost purchase and gone for an uncontrolled backcountry slide, you'll probably agree that a non-arrested fall on the A slide could result in you going home in a box. I personally don't go up that section of trail in winter conditions without an ice axe to plant in stable pack as I cross.

 

[natron]

elaborate?

it's a good slide with a jump at the end to launch you into the air.

I vaguely remember crossing this slide 5 yrs ago in the summer.. So, the "jump at the end" does the slide cliff out? and so any guesses to the vert? 5ft cliff or 50 ft.? or does an ice bulge form?

 

[Mad Townie]

Reading this entire thread just now, I couldn't help but think about how fantastic the Saddleback people are. The ski patrollers recommend which trails we should climb, and the only thing they ask is that we check in and out at the highest hut so that they don't worry about us. Good folks.

Oh, and those "liability waivers" are useless and unnecessary. We don't sign waivers to hike any other trails, do we?

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

Before you accuse, by the way, I do *not* have Wildcat D in winter. This will mean paying $10 if I want to go that route. But maybe I'll ski down.

Another thing you could do is buy a regular pass...skin up, ski down, then ski the rest of the day using the lifts.

 

[rocket21]

I vaguely remember crossing this slide 5 yrs ago in the summer.. So, the "jump at the end" does the slide cliff out? and so any guesses to the vert? 5ft cliff or 50 ft.? or does an ice bulge form?

I think the bump visible from the crossing in winter may be debris from when it slid years ago. I haven't walked the slide top to bottom, but I believe it's upward of 100-150 vertical (including above the trail) in winter. Plenty of vertical to accelerate and put a fallen hiker in peril.

 

[skibones]

Another thing you could do is buy a regular pass...skin up, ski down, then ski the rest of the day using the lifts.

I thought the ski areas frowned on this. What exactly is the ski areas' (not just Wild Cat) position on skinning up if you do have a pass.

 

[Mac]

Reading this entire thread just now, I couldn't help but think about how fantastic the Saddleback people are. The ski patrollers recommend which trails we should climb, and the only thing they ask is that we check in and out at the highest hut so that they don't worry about us. Good folks.

Agreed. And in the summer they have a map showing the hiking trail to the top.

 

[peakbagger]

Mad Townie, the liability waiver isnt really a typical liability waiver. Bascally NH law deems that any paying user of a ski area is prevented from suing the ski area or other patrons for damages. Jeremy has a link floating around to the RSA. I expect that by having the hiker pay a token amount they are now a "customer" and covered by the statute. I expect the signature for the liability waiver is really just to prove that the hiker is aware of their loss of rights. But then again I am not a lawyer and others can probably discuss the legalities.

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

I thought the ski areas frowned on this. What exactly is the ski areas' (not just Wild Cat) position on skinning up if you do have a pass.

Actually, I can answer that. Because this is a hiking website it has gone mostly unmentioned here except for Peakbaggers resume in the beginning, that there was at the meeting a person representing 'backcountry' skiers if that's the word. Apparently there is an increasing number of skiers who what to skin the slope and ski down. Up to this point they had been allowed to do it.

I had the impression that as far as hikers go the Wild Cat management was simply concerned about safety including all of the legal ramifications. Thus the ban on dogs and sledding and keeping the hikers on a specific trail during hours that there is no snow making or snow cat operation.

As for skiers who skin up the management was concerned both about liability with skiers not officially registered and with their increasing numbers which he says are growing exponentially. It was agreed that the $10 would cover a skier who skins up. That skier also had to stay within the hours of operation which previously had not been the case. The fellow who was at the meeting mentioned that he liked to go up very early before going to work. Actually in the case of the "skinners" there was some talk of the possibility of a season pass but that never really went anywhere. (Personally, I'm glad they didn't prolong the conversation because the meeting went almost four hours as it was and once I had learned that dogs were banned I really wasn't interested in sitting around for another hour talking about a ski pass.)

The possibility of purchasing a regular daily pass and using it to skin up once, never really was mentioned, but in as much as they were going to permit folks to skin up anyway I feel pretty sure there wouldn't be any objection because it actually is more money for them.

 

[RoySwkr]

The possibility of purchasing a regular daily pass and using it to skin up once, never really was mentioned, but in as much as they were going to permit folks to skin up anyway I feel pretty sure there wouldn't be any objection because it actually is more money for them.

In the past, you could buy a one-ride lift ticket for instance if you wanted to ski down Wildcat Valley to Jackson - wonder if you could use it to skin up and down all day until you use the lift

What bums me out is it's not free on your birthday any more - I was planning on a free ride up for my 80th

 

[cushetunk]

Well, I hate to say it, but …*we as hikers have no right or entitlement to a safer, faster, or easier route to a peak out in the National Forest. For example, I've heard people say they want to hike the Cannon ski slopes because the trails are rocky & steep & kinda suck. Well, uh, yeah. It's not supposed to be a sidewalk or smooth-groomed (literally) trail. It's supposed to be the woods.

I have to agree with MichaelJ on this one. While there are many compelling arguments for and against Wildcat's policy, the question of the difficulty of the alternative routes is largely irrelevant. Maybe you need an ice ax, or even a rope, to cross that portion of the slide in certain winter conditions... so what? Just because the peak is on a list doesn't mean that it has to be easy.

 

[natron]

I had an excellent day when I winter bagged wildcat, almost 2 years ago, thinking the future is not as bright for me there..
here's a tr on t4t from that day http://timefortuckerman.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14057

 

[RoySwkr]

Well, I hate to say it, but …*we as hikers have no right or entitlement to a safer, faster, or easier route to a peak out in the National Forest. For example, I've heard people say they want to hike the Cannon ski slopes because the trails are rocky & steep & kinda suck. Well, uh, yeah. It's not supposed to be a sidewalk or smooth-groomed (literally) trail. It's supposed to be the woods.

Unfortunately this attitude seems to have superseded the Forest Plan which promotes a spectrum of recreational opportunity. The Sierra Club and similar groups are trying to make Wilderness closer to true wilderness with essentially unmaintained trails which leaves a shrinking part of the Forest to be hiker-centric, i.e. managed for use by hikers not wild beasts. And now the FS wants to thumb their noses at hikers there too.

If I was the ski area I would want to collect from the free-loading sliders and skinners who are there only because the ski area is, and I would worry about groomers etc. running over hikers particularly after dark. I thought that building a hiking trail that bypassed the ski trail to replace the old CCC trail subsumed by the ski trail was a reasonable compromise for hikers, it would be interesting to see how much use it got.

 

[RoySwkr]

I think it's important to make it clear that the Wildcat A slide can be *very* dangerous.
...
With the East Osceola slide crossing, there is a little bit of woods before it drops into the next section of slide, so one may have a chance to grab something.

I agree with the above. The East Osceola slide is pretty well grown in below the trail crossing and should be reasonably safe except right after a heavy snowfall if avalanche conditions apply. Plus you can cross that on the same level and then go up the far side in the trees, unlike Wildcat A where the diagonal crossing makes it harder to get across quickly without building up momentum downhill or slowing down uphill.

I was surprised that the FS didn't insist on some sort of switchback reroute above the slide, it wouldn't be that hard to do. Of course now there is all the Irene work to do including a lot of the 19MB including a missing half bridge and several places where sliding into the brook isn't far-fetched - that trail isn't as easy or safe as it was.